Shindengen R/R update; S4 fitting annoyances and lithium battery info

[spuggy]

So, I had to do a bunch of googling to address my problem "correctly"; hopefully there'll be useful info that might save folks having to start from scratch.

There's the most excellent thread by Kato, here: http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=46708, which covers how bad the stock rectifier/regulator is, and how to easily replace with a MOSFET shunt instead of the SCR shunt, which overheats and kills itself.

I did some research (mostly summarized here http://ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=53879), and figured that if I ever needed to, I'd go with a Series R/R (as these only draw as much power as the circuit actually needs from the alternator/wiring), rather than a shunt - which pulls 100% of alternator output all the time and just shunts it to ground.

Which, even though MOSFETs run considerably cooler than SCRs, still strikes me as frickin' stone age. And neither do anything to help bikes prone to get crispy stator windings and cooked alternator wires - like many Japanese bikes.

There are also guys with infra-red cameras/thermometers and dyno tests who swear that their bikes with a series R/R make more power to the wheels by not running the alternator flat-out - and run lower oil temps to boot.

(I found a fascinating thread regarding Aprilas, which suddenly started buring out alternator - the guys had video of brand-new stator windings turning crispy brown within 30 seconds of running up on the test bed... Seems Aprila spec'd/need 1200 guass on their rotors, but they switched suppliers and started getting rotors that measured ~2600 guass - so their alternators were putting out over double the rated power. Instead of fitting a series R/R, which would have addressed all the problems handily, Aprila apparently turned down the rotors to increase the air-gap/limit output - which resulted in them not putting out enough power at idle to charge the battery... On a brand new bike. You couldn't make this stuff up...)

But anyway, neither of my 900s seemed to have an issue with the factory-fitted R/R. So I wasn't really motivated to do anything about it.

Fast-forward, and enter my new-to-me S4 stage right... Battery would go flat, and re-charging it didn't last. After a short-ish ride (15 miles or so), the tach would go crazy - or just stop working altogether. AlanC confirmed my suspicions that this was almost certainly the VR...

Jack at RoadsterCycles (who sells Shindengen regulators and wiring kits) posted a useful YouTube video explaining how to spot a fake Shindengen :


https://youtu.be/TYxtCC330Xg

After watching, realized that Flea Bay is awash, positively neck deep, in fake Shindengens - and, from user feedback, that most probably aren't even freakin' MOSFETs, so no better than the original unit - plus you have to screw with the link cable. (And by the way - the Japanese lost their production facility in the Fukushima earthquake in 2011, so they haven't built a FH0012 since then - anything that purports to be a "new FH0012" is either new old stock - or more likely, not an FH0012 at all).

The weasel words are "fits", "replaces" etc. If it doesn't have the lumps on the heat sink, it's not a Shindengen (as all except the SH847 have those). You can buy one for 15 quid, which should be a pretty good indicator of quality, right there. And ones which are visually indistinguishable can be marked up as high as 90-100 quid (think auto factors). But still fakes.

[spuggy]

Jack recommends the Shindengen SH847. Which are hard-to-obtain and expensive. Both the SH775 and SH821, SH879 are series R/Rs like the SH847. The SH775 is known to have a problem regulating on very-high revving bikes (over 12,000 RPM). But has been fitted as standard equipment to many (including some Ducatis, I believe).

I bought a couple of SH821AA's on Evil Bay; one from a 2015 Yamaha XSR700 with less <4K miles, and one from a 2019 Hypermotard 950 with 950 miles. The Yammy one cost 30 quid, the Duke one 40. There's no way to tell them apart (arrived in the same package), so I don't know which one is which/which one I fitted to the bike, lol...

The Triumph link cable is sub-$10 US. In the US. By the time you've shipped it/paid duty etc, it'll cost about the same as buying one in the UK (to say nothing of, it will clear customs and then sit in an airport for a month right now before it going anywhere. Ask me how I know...)

The UK one will set you back between 20-30 quid. Or 37 euros. And as much as it smarts to pay as much for the cable than the R/R, it's still cheaper than buying the connectors (two Furukawa connectors will set you back close to 20 quid on their own), cable, crimping tool and building one yourself.

So, I was all set. What could possibly go wrong?

LOL.

Well, the S4 puts the voltage regulator under the seat. Which is reckoned to be at least part of the problem for the SCR shunts; they get hot anyway, and there's precious little airflow under there... (You'd think the simple fact that 75% of the volume of the regulator is FRICKING HEAT SINK FINS would be some kind of a clue, but that doesn't seem to have registered at Ducati).

Although the SH821 is about the same size of the original regulator (if rotated 90 degrees, and ignoring the connectors), the limited space on top of the oil/air separator prevents you from fitting it in the original orientation.

Like this:



compared to this:



But you can turn it 180 degrees and use a single bolt - and the Triumph link cable is still long enough to (just about) make it work.

Until you go to re-fit the seat, that is... The Furukawa connectors on the link cable want to live where the divider between the toolbox is on the bottom of the seat pan.



I'm kind of loath to start modifying stock parts that aren't readily replaceable - just one of my foibles....

[spuggy]

There's a conversion bracket available for the regulator on the S4 (Corse Dynamics, I think). It wants the regulator to live where the air/oil separator is, so requires removing it entirely. OK...

However, a little research turned up the the fact that certain race bikes (which have a HUGE CF air/oil separator) make 5-7HP more on the dyno with the increased volume. And that some folks who fitted the K&N mod to the engine breather found it made the motor less crisp and responsive on the butt dyno. So I concluded that if I modify the stock breather at all, it'll be to make the breather fitting on the motor entirely open, and to fit the reed valve to the airbox - effectively increasing the crankcase volume and thereby reducing pressures achieved via compression of under-piston volume. Not because I need more power, but Just Because....

Which didn't leave too many more places. I toyed with the idea of mounting on the footpeg hanger, but it'd be fugly, and although in the airstream, also exposed to the elements. And the PO had already drilled a couple of holes in the plastic seat under-tray for reasons unknown. So I drilled a couple more, situating the Shindengen with enough room to connect/dis-connect the Furukawa connectors if desired, also leaving room to route the cables through the groove in the bottom of the air/oil separator.



I still need to route/zip tie things up so the cables are supported, but you get the idea:



My original cables/connectors weren't burnt, so I settled for cleaning them up with contact cleaner and filling the non-weatherproof connectors with dialectic silicon grease (washing out whatever Triumph provided, as I have no idea what it was or what it was rated for).

I also de-pinned the factory connector on the old regulator's battery cable and the equivalent connector on the Triumph link cable and swapped them over to restore the locking feature. Still gonna zip tie the connector up to keep it tight though...

[spuggy]

I also replaced the battery with a Shido lithium. Because I didn't trust the lead-acid at all anymore... The Shido is exactly the same size as the Yuasa so no messing about packing it with foam pads to match the battery cables.

Did a little research on this too. Turns out the Shido, Skyrich, Deltran, WPS, SPS and Magneti Marelli lithium batteries are all the same - except for the colour of the case. These brands are typically marketed into different regions - but many/most of those companies are actually owned by the same parent company, Hangzhou Wanma High-Energy Battery Co Ltd. - the clue being the (identical) little 3 LED charge indicator on the top they all have...

They all have a built-in battery (cell) management system (BMS), and they have over-voltage protection. I poked about a bit - but although the JMT (which I also considered) has a BMS, I couldn't find any mention of it having an over-voltage protection whatsoever. If the regulator dies again (which hopefully it won't), last thing I want is a fire under the tank because the voltage exceeded 15V...

Oh, does SkyRich sound familiar? Probably because they're OEM fitment for Ducati... But don't spring 170 quid for the Ducati charger, buy a Norco Genius 2 instead for 1/3 the price.

End result? Motor whizzes over energetically on the button, fires/starts happily. I get 14.1V at idle across the tender connector (which I basically fitted as the easiest way to check the voltage with the tank down, heh) and 13.8V at idle with the brights on full.

And when I get back from a ride, like I just did, the tach is still behaving itself. Yeh, I'm gonna call that good

[Mr Gazza]

Frickin' good article Spuggy!
I did a bunch of searching and I believe this is the video that you referred to? https://youtu.be/TYxtCC330Xg
I couldn't get your link to work.

I would agree about the alternator taking a lot of power. Many years ago I was fiddling with a Honda or Yamaha and I disconnected the alternator cables whilst it was running. To my amazement the tickover raced up by about 2000rpm and then the alternator dragged it back down to normal when I touched the cables back together. Whatever bike it was would have probably been sub 20bhp but I think the alternator would have been sapping a few of those.
This makes a mockery of those who say that it doesn't cost any more to have the lights on, as clearly more current demand puts more load on the engine and therefore burns more fuel... I'm into fitting one of those R/Rs that only draws what it needs.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

Frickin' good article Spuggy!

Thanks Mr Gazza!

Yeh, I spent about 20 hours googling/reading this time around so I didn't embarrass myself on the internet



thought I'd take the time to share; I still owe you guys lots, overall

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

I did a bunch of searching and I believe this is the video that you referred to? https://youtu.be/TYxtCC330Xg
I couldn't get your link to work.

Yup, that's the one - since edited the embedded link to the same URL, as the board software doesn't like embedded links. Or it's disabled or summat..

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

This makes a mockery of those who say that it doesn't cost any more to have the lights on, as clearly more current demand puts more load on the engine and therefore burns more fuel... I'm into fitting one of those R/Rs that only draws what it needs.

Heh. With a shunt, the only difference it makes having the lights on or off, is whether the power you generate is converted into light/heat in the bulbs, or heat in the shunt... Makes no odds to the motor, because the alternator is chucking out everything it can anyway

Those of y'all who tried to save battery money on your push bikes by using the dynamo-on-the-tire approach will have a pretty good idea how much drag it takes to generate even a pitiful couple of watts...

One of the forum pages, they measured power draw in the alternator leads, to check whether a specific R/R was a shunt or series type; basically, as soon as you switch off the load on a series R/R, the amps in the wires drops off to almost nothing. That's gotta make a difference.


All seemed kind of academic until I realized I had to replace the regulator anyway. And wasn't exactly brimming with confidence with the battery.

[Mr Gazza]

So will the series R/R meter power demand from the alternator and release more to the engine? Like when I disconnected the cables on my teeny bike? Or does the alternator still sap the engine whatever?

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

So will the series R/R meter power demand from the alternator and release more to the engine? Like when I disconnected the cables on my teeny bike? Or does the alternator still sap the engine whatever?

A shunt takes full power from the alternator all the time. It maintains voltage/current to what you want by bypassing (shunting) the excess away.

An SCR shunt gets damned hot doing this. A MOSFET shunt doesn't get so hot - but is still doing exactly the same 1960's thing, just with updated semiconductors that make it more efficient/turn less power into heat.

Any drag on the motor due to the alternator will be identical with both types of shunt; the alternator is running 100% output, 100% of the time.

I thought this was a pretty clear, readable explanation, of the difference between shunt/series R/Rs from triumphrat https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/c...upgrade.104504 - they're talking about the SH775 here:

It does NOT appear to be suited for the high rpm 4-cylinder Triumph 600-4's (TT600, Speed4, Daytona 600/650) - at high rpm it loses regulation on those bikes.
(However see further down this thread for details on the SH847 Series R/R which has been proven successful on those models)

It is made by Shindengen and has the exact same Form Factor as the FH012/020 series MOSFET Rectifier/Regulator that has enjoyed great acclaim & success.
A couple of things to note - it has lower current spec than the FH012/020, however still plenty adequate for the Twins (the FHO12/020 is actually way overkiil re current rating requirement anyway for the Twins); it is not MOSFET but SCR.

Wait I hear you cry - "you have been espousing the benefits of MOSFET regarding the reliability of these units, why are you now suggesting a replacement SCR type?"

Here is the SIGNIFICANT difference - this new R/R is SERIES - not SHUNT!!

Why is that of benefit?
The difference between Series & Shunt is that:

Shunt - the Stator always has to apply maximum generated current - when the R/R is in regulation it shorts across the winding to 'shunt' current away from the load directly back to the stator. In an SCR (OEM) Shunt Regulator the SCRs get extremely hot and they ultimately burn out if that heat is not adequately cooled - that is why OEM needs to up front directly in the cooling path.
Because of the way it operates, if you reduce the system load (e.g. turn off the lights) the R/R will actually have to shunt MORE current and will run hotter - but the stator load is the same regardless of whether the current is going to the load, or back through the SCR's.

Series - this is fundamentally different in that in a Series design, instead of diverting (shunting) excess current back to the stator to control the output voltage, the regulation works by interrupting the current path to the load. This means that the Regulator ONLY supplies current demanded by the load itself, and no excess current parallel path through a shunt. So the net result is that this type of Regulator is MUCH kinder on the stator because the stator is always supplying much less current! So the stator does not get so hot and its reliability increases significantly.
The fact that it has SCR's is not quite so problematic as in the Shunt application, because they are flowing less current and for a shorter duration. So they will not get as hot as when used in shunt mode.

This particular unit is a Shindengen SH775 regulator and is used on Polaris models.
It is VERY inexpensive - brand new -
e.g. $73 shipped!!!! ($60 & change plus shipping)
http://polarisparts123.com/partnumber-search/ (enter 4012941)

Polaris REGULATOR-3PH,35A,SERIES,105C for 2011 Polaris R11HR76AG/AR RANGER 6X6 800 EFI 4012941

[spuggy]

There's also this guy https://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...H-775-R-R-test, who says:

Here are some test results comparing my old shunt SH-232 R/R to the series SH-775.

Disclaimer- I have no idea how accurate my ac current clamp meter is at frequencies above 60 Hz; I know it's accurate on 3 phase 60 Hz stuff. I suspect it might be pretty good at 120 Hz (1200 rpm), but at 400 Hz, who knows.
On the good old SH-232;
at 1200 rpm, stator line current = 6.5 amp ; R/R output 12.8 volts DC
at 4000 rpm, stator line current = 11 amp; R/R output 14.2 volts DC

On the SH-775
at 1200 rpm, stator line current = 6.7 amp; R/R output 13.0 volts DC
at 4000 rpm, stator line current = 6.8 amp; R/R output 14.2 volts DC

With the SH-775, turning off headlight, resulted in an immediate drop of stator line current to 3.5 amp at 1200 rpm.

The tests were done with a bike that had ran for good half hour first, so everything should be toasty warm. The stator used was stock suzuki- likely 30 years old.
Apparently, the SH-775 is limiting the current flow from stator to what the bike needs at the moment- and no more.

[Edit: Note that there was discussion later in that thread that basically concluded that his clamp read about 75% of true values @ 400Hz. But the side-by-side higher-RPM comparison figures are still valid as a yardstick - as the conditions/error would be the same for both units).

The 8xx series are also series R/R. The SH847 is rated at 50A, which is supposedly overkill (not to mention hard-to-source, expensive - and physically much larger). Shindengen were a little sketchy on the specs to begin with - and have since removed them all... So I've got no clue what the SH879 or SH821 are actually rated at.

But the SH821AA is OEM Ducati fitment to last years' Hypermotards (which, if I'm not mistaken, come fitted with SkyRich LiFePO4 - lithium iron phosphate - batteries from the factory). I find it hard to believe it isn't up to the job for an old Monster...

[Mr Gazza]

Thank you for your patience and thoroughness Spuggy. A very full answer indeed.
I think I understand now.

[alan s4]

Yep - I did all of that as well. Only thing I would question now is whether there is any real benefit to mounting the reg under the mudguard. The new one runs so cool in my bike I'm not sure whether it makes any real difference?

What's the mileage on your bike? I needed a new sprag and starter at 20k and I'm sure the duff original RR contributed to this.

[utopia]

Thanks for an excellent article, Spuggy.
My electrics knowledge is pretty limited and so I can't profess to fully understand the underlying theory ... which makes it all the more useful to have someone else provide the info.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by alan s4

Yep - I did all of that as well. Only thing I would question now is whether there is any real benefit to mounting the reg under the mudguard. The new one runs so cool in my bike I'm not sure whether it makes any real difference?

I mostly mounted it there simply because I couldn't fit in the original location without hacking up the seat base... I'd also figured "if it runs that much cooler, why bother re-locating it?"...

I presume you had to do something similar?

It's notable that in one the few spec sheets I've seen for a Shindengen - before they pulled them all; current rating is provided relative to how much airflow there is over it...



So static with no airflow, it's not anything like as useful...

Originally Posted by alan s4

What's the mileage on your bike? I needed a new sprag and starter at 20k and I'm sure the duff original RR contributed to this.

Coming up on 21K - dismally low since I bought it, but as it had fun-curtailing issues the first few times out, so it'll take a little while to build up the confidence to take it farther from home, lol..

Yeh, starter struggling to turn the motor over with a wimpy charge can't be good for it.

Based on the behaviour of the tach (only started playing up after 10 miles or so, normal until then), I think the old RR had only recently started playing up - or was only doing so when it overheated.

[jerry]

On my S4 I mounted the Schindengen Yamaha R1 2006 rr on the side of the engine just above the belly pan and it looks ok there and gets lots of cool air .

[alan s4]

Same position as yours Spuggy. I wasn't taking any chances as the original burst into flames. Luckily in traffic at the time so could smell the smoke/feel my asre getting hotter! At motorway speed I might not have been so lucky.......