Tank ring; clearly I need some advice...

spuggy · 27-03-2017, 05:49 PM

So, further to my leaky tank saga, got a spare 900ie tank cheap. Not usually a fan of yellow, but I quite like the shade Ducati used - and it's only while the original is getting brazed up (and perhaps re-painted) anyway.

Bike ran like total garbage afterwards (tough to keep it running, just about idles, won't rev/respond to throttle properly, spits, pops and bangs). Obviously fuel-related.

Decide to swap over the pump/filter I took out of the leaking tank. Get the tank ring off, turn on the key - oh, look. Gusher from a huge split in the hose above the filter. Yeh, that'd be the problem... Pump actually looks newer than mine, so decide to use it...

Replace the hose and spend a fair amount of time up to my elbows in petrol. Finally get the pump's electrical feed on again and the pump located correctly in the clip. Yeh, I'd like 20 minutes in a room with whomever thought that was a good design - preferably with a baseball bat...

And now I'm stumped. The tank ring and it's cursed black gasket; I presume the thinner section goes into the hole in the tank, leaving the L section to go between the alloy ring and the very top of the tank? Seems like the only way that'd make sense.

See, I'm starting to question everything because I've lubed the gasket like crazy, removed all the grub screws completely for good measure - but the black gasket just seems too large to go into the hole in the top of the tank... It just never "starts" at all, no matter what I do; making sure it's square/holding pressure on the alloy ring and tapping with the shaft of a hammer - it just bounces. Using man-sized taps makes no difference - so doesn't seem to be a problem properly addressed with brute force and ignorance...

Does the gasket swell after use - or when removed - and I need a new one?

It looks undamaged, so I thought I'd just re-use it - but that might explain it...

Or is there some arcane trick - perhaps involving chicken entrails and/or obscure curses in the direction of Bologna - to getting this into the tank? Perhaps sellotape around the corner of the gasket to help it start? Or work it in/around with a spudger to get it started?

Yeh, I could certainly use some tips here, so thanks for any suggestions...

Jez900ie · 27-03-2017, 06:13 PM

Just a wild guess, but are the pumps the same? You know that your "old pump" works correctly...

Darren69 · 27-03-2017, 06:15 PM

Does the gasket swell after use - or when removed - and I need a new one? It looks undamaged, so I thought I'd just re-use it - but that might explain it...

I've not had to do one of these before but I've read horror stories of those with less patience actually denting the tank trying to force these back in, so its my guess that they swell and need replacing. The large o ring on the bottom of the 748/916 fuel tank that seals the fuel pump flange to the bottom of the tank cannot be reused as its too big and gets trapped however careful you are and a new one goes on so easy its mad. So that would be my guess.

Darren69 · 27-03-2017, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jez900ie

Just a wild guess, but are the pumps the same? You know that your "old pump" works correctly...

Nothing to do with the pump Jez, he's trying to get the filler neck and cap assembly back inside the tank hole. I think they must swell so a new one is needed.

spuggy · 27-03-2017, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jez900ie

Just a wild guess, but are the pumps the same? You know that your "old pump" works correctly...

Yup, the pump that came with the "spare" tank was identical, although no corrosion on the body - unlike my "original". I bought the spare on principle - because they come up so infrequently. Carbed tanks don't fit, and the 2001 S4 uses a different frame (and tank bottom to match) - as all the later FI bikes use that frame, the 2000-2001 900ie's have a tank that's unique to them, as far as I can tell. Despite them both being 2001 900ie tanks, the yellow one has a completely different feed/return/vent layout, and the internal hard pipes are different too..

After 30 minutes cursing the tank ring, I also fired it up on that pump, just to make sure the split hose was the only problem before I invested too much time - even though, with a 50mm split down to the cloth in that hose, I was surprised it even had enough pressure in the fuel rail that it ran, however poorly...

However, once the hose was replaced, started immediately, responded to throttle as expected. Yup, all good - so long as I can get the damned tank back together

spuggy · 27-03-2017, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

I've not had to do one of these before but I've read horror stories of those with less patience actually denting the tank trying to force these back in

Yeh, I was careful, but I was also thinking "this can't be right or all Monsters would have bludgeon damage on the tank/ring...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

so its my guess that they swell and need replacing. The large o ring on the bottom of the 748/916 fuel tank that seals the fuel pump flange to the bottom of the tank cannot be reused as its too big and gets trapped however careful you are and a new one goes on so easy its mad. So that would be my guess.

Seems like a viable theory. Darn, if only I'd thought ahead and got one in the post before they closed...

Darren69 · 27-03-2017, 06:45 PM

The 900sie is a bit of a weird one that came in 2 flavours (early hoop type that are more common as made for a couple of years or the later stop gap model which was only for one year. Most of the later ie tanks should be the same as the S4 one eg 1000/800/620ie and probably won't fit the 900Sie 100% I think mainly because the seat/tank part changed . So the seat won't line up properly although the actual tank may fit (kind of).

Mr Gazza · 27-03-2017, 06:56 PM

You should be able to re-use both seals. Mine have been in and out several times.

Leave the grub screws in the ring but not protruding outside of it.. You might want to tighten up a couple of opposite ones pretty quick once you have it all in position.

The trick is to lube the lower O-ring with something rubber friendly such as Vaseline, but keep the upper, outer seal dry or it will just flip out of place too easily.. Carefully wipe it clean but don't stretch it.

I forget the exact orientation of the upper lip seal now, but it should be self explanatory when you have it in your hand.
It is a complete tease to get into place, but just chill and be prepared for it to take several goes before it all just pops into place. It will need a nice "deliberate" square blow to get it in, but nothing so forceful as to do any damage to anything.

Just take your time and consider it some kind of meditational therapy..

Dukedesmo · 27-03-2017, 07:42 PM

I have changed the fuel filter a couple of times on mine (have a carby bike with an IE tank) and it's a swine to do and leaves me with split knuckles and grazed wrists but I've always managed to get the filler back on (eventually).

spuggy · 27-03-2017, 08:54 PM

<HOMER>D'oh!</HOMER>

I frickin' KNEW I was doing something stoopid - I just figured out what my malfunction was.

The black gasket goes AROUND THE OUTSIDE of the alloy ring. Uh, yeh, that looks much easier...

Just took me 10 minutes, outside, by torchlight. Had to stretch the gasket twice, one thump with the palm and it seated, nip up the grub screws.

Mr Gazza · 27-03-2017, 09:59 PM

Yay!! You got it.... It's a hard thing to describe how to do, but you sussed it.

I have a word document that helps to explain one method of fitting the cap and seals, but I don't know how to post it. I can email it anyone who is interested.

Dirty · 27-03-2017, 11:11 PM

Glad you got your ring sorted

Gazza, Take a screen grab (use 'snipping tool') then post it like you would post a picture

Dennis menace · 28-03-2017, 10:59 AM

It is confusing because the gasket fits like a 'top hat' under the lip of the tank ring and it tends to peel out of shape because it does not grip the ring. I used a dry surface for the gasket on the ring and a slight [U]smear of silicone grease on the tank. Then, with firm pressure the ring should ease into the tank enough to get the grub screws located. Best done in warm conditions.

27-03-2017, 05:49 PM	#1
spuggy Registered User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Farnborough Bike: M900sie Posts: 171	Tank ring; clearly I need some advice... So, further to my leaky tank saga, got a spare 900ie tank cheap. Not usually a fan of yellow, but I quite like the shade Ducati used - and it's only while the original is getting brazed up (and perhaps re-painted) anyway. Bike ran like total garbage afterwards (tough to keep it running, just about idles, won't rev/respond to throttle properly, spits, pops and bangs). Obviously fuel-related. Decide to swap over the pump/filter I took out of the leaking tank. Get the tank ring off, turn on the key - oh, look. Gusher from a huge split in the hose above the filter. Yeh, that'd be the problem... Pump actually looks newer than mine, so decide to use it... Replace the hose and spend a fair amount of time up to my elbows in petrol. Finally get the pump's electrical feed on again and the pump located correctly in the clip. Yeh, I'd like 20 minutes in a room with whomever thought *that* was a good design - preferably with a baseball bat... And now I'm stumped. The tank ring and it's cursed black gasket; I presume the thinner section goes into the hole in the tank, leaving the L section to go between the alloy ring and the very top of the tank? Seems like the only way that'd make sense. See, I'm starting to question everything because I've lubed the gasket like crazy, removed all the grub screws completely for good measure - but the black gasket just seems too large to go into the hole in the top of the tank... It just never "starts" at all, no matter what I do; making sure it's square/holding pressure on the alloy ring and tapping with the shaft of a hammer - it just bounces. Using man-sized taps makes no difference - so doesn't seem to be a problem properly addressed with brute force and ignorance... Does the gasket swell after use - or when removed - and I need a new one? It looks undamaged, so I thought I'd just re-use it - but that might explain it... Or is there some arcane trick - perhaps involving chicken entrails and/or obscure curses in the direction of Bologna - to getting this into the tank? Perhaps sellotape around the corner of the gasket to help it start? Or work it in/around with a spudger to get it started? Yeh, I could certainly use some tips here, so thanks for any suggestions...

27-03-2017, 06:13 PM	#2
Jez900ie Pleasantly surprised! Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Stoke on Trent Bike: M900ie Posts: 780	Just a wild guess, but are the pumps the same? You know that your "old pump" works correctly... __________________ Monsters don't hide under the bed, they sleep inside the shed

27-03-2017, 06:15 PM	#3
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,038	Does the gasket swell after use - or when removed - and I need a new one? It looks undamaged, so I thought I'd just re-use it - but that might explain it... I've not had to do one of these before but I've read horror stories of those with less patience actually denting the tank trying to force these back in, so its my guess that they swell and need replacing. The large o ring on the bottom of the 748/916 fuel tank that seals the fuel pump flange to the bottom of the tank cannot be reused as its too big and gets trapped however careful you are and a new one goes on so easy its mad. So that would be my guess. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

27-03-2017, 06:45 PM	#7
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,038	The 900sie is a bit of a weird one that came in 2 flavours (early hoop type that are more common as made for a couple of years or the later stop gap model which was only for one year. Most of the later ie tanks should be the same as the S4 one eg 1000/800/620ie and probably won't fit the 900Sie 100% I think mainly because the seat/tank part changed . So the seat won't line up properly although the actual tank may fit (kind of). __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

27-03-2017, 06:56 PM	#8
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,853	You should be able to re-use both seals. Mine have been in and out several times. Leave the grub screws in the ring but not protruding outside of it.. You might want to tighten up a couple of opposite ones pretty quick once you have it all in position. The trick is to lube the lower O-ring with something rubber friendly such as Vaseline, but keep the upper, outer seal dry or it will just flip out of place too easily.. Carefully wipe it clean but don't stretch it. I forget the exact orientation of the upper lip seal now, but it should be self explanatory when you have it in your hand. It is a complete tease to get into place, but just chill and be prepared for it to take several goes before it all just pops into place. It will need a nice "deliberate" square blow to get it in, but nothing so forceful as to do any damage to anything. Just take your time and consider it some kind of meditational therapy.. __________________

27-03-2017, 07:42 PM	#9
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,848	I have changed the fuel filter a couple of times on mine (have a carby bike with an IE tank) and it's a swine to do and leaves me with split knuckles and grazed wrists but I've always managed to get the filler back on (eventually). __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

27-03-2017, 08:54 PM	#10
spuggy Registered User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Farnborough Bike: M900sie Posts: 171	<HOMER>D'oh!</HOMER> I frickin' *KNEW* I was doing something stoopid - I just figured out what my malfunction was. The black gasket goes AROUND THE OUTSIDE of the alloy ring. Uh, yeh, that looks much easier... Just took me 10 minutes, outside, by torchlight. Had to stretch the gasket twice, one thump with the palm and it seated, nip up the grub screws.

27-03-2017, 09:59 PM	#11
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,853	Yay!! You got it.... It's a hard thing to describe how to do, but you sussed it. I have a word document that helps to explain one method of fitting the cap and seals, but I don't know how to post it. I can email it anyone who is interested. __________________

27-03-2017, 11:11 PM	#12
Dirty Bockloks Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London Bike: No Bike Yet! Posts: 4,601	Glad you got your ring sorted Gazza, Take a screen grab (use 'snipping tool') then post it like you would post a picture __________________ Wounds heal, chicks dig scars, glory lasts forever Beware of eBay

28-03-2017, 10:59 AM	#13
Dennis menace Registered User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Farnsfield Bike: Other Ducati Posts: 300	It is confusing because the gasket fits like a 'top hat' under the lip of the tank ring and it tends to peel out of shape because it does not grip the ring. I used a dry surface for the gasket on the ring and a slight [U]smear of silicone grease on the tank. Then, with firm pressure the ring should ease into the tank enough to get the grub screws located. Best done in warm conditions.