620 won't start

WhisperingWasp · 25-04-2018, 09:25 PM

Hello all.

Thought I'd revisit this thread as a bit of an update and also a request for help (might need to post in the electrics section but will see how I go).

So I'm almost 3 years into ownership now and I still love the Monster as much as the day I got it. It's on almost 31k miles now and going strong. Using it more than I thought as a change of job location has meant I now commute on it when the weather is half-decent. Not changed anything apart from removing the fly screen and I've recently wrapped the exhaust. It's just had a full service, new belts and a new rear tyre so is in great fettle.

So...

The other day my right rear indicator stopped working. Naturally presumed a blown bulb so bought a new one. That didn't work so I took apart the indicator and found one of the connectors had detached from the back of the bulb housing. Reattached it, checked it worked and put it all back together. I am sure the rear light is not sitting exactly as it was but all lights are working and thought no more of it. Fast forward to this morning and I get the bike out for a nice sunny ride to work and it won't start. Won't turn over at all. Assumed flat battery (had lights on a lot while I was fixing indicator) and hopped in the car.

Got home tonight and stuck the battery conditioner on and the indication was it was fine. Left it on for a good few hours anyway and just tried the bike again. Absolutely nothing. Checked the fuses and they are fine. Bike definitely in neutral.

Sure it doesn't matter but the only bulb I could get was clear and I have clear lenses so I wrapped it in orange lens film. It flashes (albeit a different shade of orange and I will rectify this with better bulb) so I am sure this has nothing to do with it.

Sorry for the long post but I would appreciate any guidance on what could be the problem. Am I missing something obvious? I am not great when it comes to the mechanical/electrical side of things but everything else in the last 3 years I've managed to deal with but this has me stumped.

Thanks all.

Nickj · 25-04-2018, 10:22 PM

You get the normal startup (well not obviously) with the clocks sweeping etc.
Then you press the starter button and ?? any clicks or noises or just silence?

If nothing is happening then the first thing to check is the starter relay, take the seat off and listen to the relay. It might well be that simple and just need a replacement or gently prise off the lid and check the contacts which could be corroded enough to not pass any power to the starter solenoid. You can try refacing the contacts by dragging some fine/medium grit wet and dry (dry) to get a clean contact.
Move outwards to the solenoid.

Oh a good one to check will be the power going into the starter motor, the rubber boot can trap water and then the copper bits corrode until the literally fall apart. I had that but got a local guy who rebuilds alternators to replace the bits. I filled the boot with silicone grease and checked it every so often and it stayed looking like new.

The bulb shouldn't be anything to do with it, just one of those co-incidental oddities

slob · 26-04-2018, 06:25 AM

(post moved to Electrics forum)

When you turn the key and the clocks (should) sweep, you should also hear an obvious whirring from the fuel tank, as the pump primes. If it doesn't, you'll find two small relays under the tank, on the l/h side of the battery. They were under the seat on older models.
NOTE! try to avoid lifting the tank if it's more than half full, as it puts excessive strain on the hinge, this is not so bad if you have a plastic tank model.

One is the fuel injection relay, the other is the main one. try pulling them out and swapping them over, if you then get nothing at all the FI relay was dead. They were about £6 each from Moto Rapido last time I bought some. I keep a couple in my toolbox now, just in case.

Other obvious things to try (but often overlooked)
Is the kill-switch set to 'run'?
Is the neutral light working? if not the bike may not start with the stand down or if the the clutch lever isn't pulled in (this differs a little from year to year)

WhisperingWasp · 26-04-2018, 07:27 PM

Thank you for the guidance.

So I checked fuses, swapped the relays and still nothing. Called out the AA (free, why not) and the guy was completely stumped.

I'll try to relay as much info as I can remember/understood!
- battery is absolutely fine
- there is power going to the starter relay/solenoid
- there is NOT (I think) power going to the starter motor
- it will not bump start at all, which he could not understand
- the neutral light is not illuminated before start up and I can not recall whether it usually is or not?! In any case won't start with side stand up and clutch pulled in (which I always do)

More might come to me but for now I am at a loss. Frustration is one of you lot could probably diagnose it in under a minute! A good friend who know all there is to know about bikes will come round and take a look and I can also get the AA to recover it to the garage whenever I want.

All thoughts still welcome

Thanks all.

slob · 26-04-2018, 07:53 PM

when you turn the key
do the clock needles sweep?
do you hear the fuel pump priming?
does the immobiliser light on the dash go out?

WhisperingWasp · 26-04-2018, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slob

when you turn the key
do the clock needles sweep?
do you hear the fuel pump priming?
does the immobiliser light on the dash go out?

Can't say I've noticed an immobiliser light but everything happens as it always has done; the sweep, the whirr...

slob · 26-04-2018, 08:57 PM

check the light, it’s at the bottom of the dash in the centre, it should flash slowly when you turn the key off, to show the immobiser is active (it goes out after 48 hours to save the battery) if it stays flashing when you switch back on it may give a clue to the problem.
eg a fault code or correct key not being sensed.
More info on this thread http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=56337

Nickj · 26-04-2018, 09:14 PM

Just keep eliminating problems until it's sorted. a right PIA to be sure !!

The kill switch wiring could also be a problem (I had this on two 750's) the routing takes the wire round the fork leg. add a little water getting into the wire and it'll corrode and then fracture. Probably worth checking as well.

WhisperingWasp · 26-04-2018, 09:41 PM

Thanks both, will pick things up again this weekend.

Can't get my head around how it was running perfectly, I dismantle the rear to sort indicator then the bike doesn't start! Can't see how the things could be connected but just seems so suspicious given the timing!

Will report back.

Mr Gazza · 26-04-2018, 09:55 PM

Is it possible that you managed to disturb the cable and/or connection to the neutral light switch?
The switch is at the very rearmost of the crankcases, in the back to the righthand side.... It's the only thing with any cable coming out of the back of the engine.

Trace the cable back to see if the connections are still all good.
I think (and maybe someone can confirm this?) that you can test the neutral light by pulling the connector off the switch and touching it to earth. if you can illuminate the light that way, it could point to the switch being faulty.. perhaps?

Darren69 · 27-04-2018, 03:36 AM

As Gazza points out there are some safety cut outs that will prevent the bike starting. If it thinks it is in gear (neutral light not lit) or if it thinks the side stand down. There is also one on the clutch which will override the neutral light and allow you to start the bike in gear if you pull the clutch. If any of those switches fail it can cause starting issues.

slob · 27-04-2018, 04:49 AM

The cutout logic changed from year to year.
My ‘02 620 wouldn’t run at all with the stand down. Quite annoying for warm up in the morning. My ‘03 1000s were ok to warm up on the stand, lucky neighbours!
Once you’ve eliminated the neutral light, as described above, you can eliminate/diagnose a sidestand switch by tracing the wire back to the connector. It’s a 3-pin ‘superseal’, near the
front engine mounting bolt on left. Only 2 pins are used. Unplug it and short out the pins on the ‘bike side’ with a bit of wire or a paperclip.
Worth flooding the clutch microswich with WD40, these can get full of road dirt. they’re also easy to damage when swapping levers.

WhisperingWasp · 27-04-2018, 08:56 AM

Thanks all. So are we saying that the neutral light should be on before the bike is started? Rather than lighting up when the bike is running?

Darren69 · 27-04-2018, 10:55 AM

Yes, if its not then that is likely the cause. Pull clutch in and it may start that way.

slob · 27-04-2018, 11:25 AM

If you’re lucky it’s just a dirty/corroded connector at the back of the gearbox. Later models have a rubber grommet on the cable to keep the **** out.
All the idiot lights should come on as you turn the key, to show they’re working then go out leaving just the oil light an neutral light on. Obviously the oil light should go out within about a second of turning the engine over.

25-04-2018, 09:25 PM	#1
WhisperingWasp Registered User Join Date: May 2015 Location: Northampton Bike: M620sie Posts: 49	620 won't start Hello all. Thought I'd revisit this thread as a bit of an update and also a request for help (might need to post in the electrics section but will see how I go). So I'm almost 3 years into ownership now and I still love the Monster as much as the day I got it. It's on almost 31k miles now and going strong. Using it more than I thought as a change of job location has meant I now commute on it when the weather is half-decent. Not changed anything apart from removing the fly screen and I've recently wrapped the exhaust. It's just had a full service, new belts and a new rear tyre so is in great fettle. So... The other day my right rear indicator stopped working. Naturally presumed a blown bulb so bought a new one. That didn't work so I took apart the indicator and found one of the connectors had detached from the back of the bulb housing. Reattached it, checked it worked and put it all back together. I am sure the rear light is not sitting exactly as it was but all lights are working and thought no more of it. Fast forward to this morning and I get the bike out for a nice sunny ride to work and it won't start. Won't turn over at all. Assumed flat battery (had lights on a lot while I was fixing indicator) and hopped in the car. Got home tonight and stuck the battery conditioner on and the indication was it was fine. Left it on for a good few hours anyway and just tried the bike again. Absolutely nothing. Checked the fuses and they are fine. Bike definitely in neutral. Sure it doesn't matter but the only bulb I could get was clear and I have clear lenses so I wrapped it in orange lens film. It flashes (albeit a different shade of orange and I will rectify this with better bulb) so I am sure this has nothing to do with it. Sorry for the long post but I would appreciate any guidance on what could be the problem. Am I missing something obvious? I am not great when it comes to the mechanical/electrical side of things but everything else in the last 3 years I've managed to deal with but this has me stumped. Thanks all. Last edited by WhisperingWasp; 25-04-2018 at 09:27 PM..

25-04-2018, 10:22 PM	#2
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,199	You get the normal startup (well not obviously) with the clocks sweeping etc. Then you press the starter button and ?? any clicks or noises or just silence? If nothing is happening then the first thing to check is the starter relay, take the seat off and listen to the relay. It might well be that simple and just need a replacement or gently prise off the lid and check the contacts which could be corroded enough to not pass any power to the starter solenoid. You can try refacing the contacts by dragging some fine/medium grit wet and dry (dry) to get a clean contact. Move outwards to the solenoid. Oh a good one to check will be the power going into the starter motor, the rubber boot can trap water and then the copper bits corrode until the literally fall apart. I had that but got a local guy who rebuilds alternators to replace the bits. I filled the boot with silicone grease and checked it every so often and it stayed looking like new. The bulb shouldn't be anything to do with it, just one of those co-incidental oddities __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature

26-04-2018, 06:25 AM	#3
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,715	(post moved to Electrics forum) When you turn the key and the clocks (should) sweep, you should also hear an obvious whirring from the fuel tank, as the pump primes. If it doesn't, you'll find two small relays under the tank, on the l/h side of the battery. They were under the seat on older models. NOTE! try to avoid lifting the tank if it's more than half full, as it puts excessive strain on the hinge, this is not so bad if you have a plastic tank model. One is the fuel injection relay, the other is the main one. try pulling them out and swapping them over, if you then get nothing at all the FI relay was dead. They were about £6 each from Moto Rapido last time I bought some. I keep a couple in my toolbox now, just in case. Other obvious things to try (but often overlooked) Is the kill-switch set to 'run'? Is the neutral light working? if not the bike may not start with the stand down or if the the clutch lever isn't pulled in (this differs a little from year to year) Last edited by slob; 26-04-2018 at 06:46 AM..

26-04-2018, 09:14 PM	#8
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,199	Just keep eliminating problems until it's sorted. a right PIA to be sure !! The kill switch wiring could also be a problem (I had this on two 750's) the routing takes the wire round the fork leg. add a little water getting into the wire and it'll corrode and then fracture. Probably worth checking as well. __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature

26-04-2018, 09:55 PM	#10
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,853	Is it possible that you managed to disturb the cable and/or connection to the neutral light switch? The switch is at the very rearmost of the crankcases, in the back to the righthand side.... It's the only thing with any cable coming out of the back of the engine. Trace the cable back to see if the connections are still all good. I think (and maybe someone can confirm this?) that you can test the neutral light by pulling the connector off the switch and touching it to earth. if you can illuminate the light that way, it could point to the switch being faulty.. perhaps? __________________

26-04-2018, 07:27 PM	#4
WhisperingWasp Registered User Join Date: May 2015 Location: Northampton Bike: M620sie Posts: 49	Thank you for the guidance. So I checked fuses, swapped the relays and still nothing. Called out the AA (free, why not) and the guy was completely stumped. I'll try to relay as much info as I can remember/understood! - battery is absolutely fine - there is power going to the starter relay/solenoid - there is NOT (I think) power going to the starter motor - it will not bump start at all, which he could not understand - the neutral light is not illuminated before start up and I can not recall whether it usually is or not?! In any case won't start with side stand up and clutch pulled in (which I always do) More might come to me but for now I am at a loss. Frustration is one of you lot could probably diagnose it in under a minute! A good friend who know all there is to know about bikes will come round and take a look and I can also get the AA to recover it to the garage whenever I want. All thoughts still welcome Thanks all.

26-04-2018, 07:53 PM	#5
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,715	when you turn the key do the clock needles sweep? do you hear the fuel pump priming? does the immobiliser light on the dash go out?

26-04-2018, 08:57 PM	#7
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,715	check the light, it’s at the bottom of the dash in the centre, it should flash slowly when you turn the key off, to show the immobiser is active (it goes out after 48 hours to save the battery) if it stays flashing when you switch back on it may give a clue to the problem. eg a fault code or correct key not being sensed. More info on this thread http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=56337

26-04-2018, 09:41 PM	#9
WhisperingWasp Registered User Join Date: May 2015 Location: Northampton Bike: M620sie Posts: 49	Thanks both, will pick things up again this weekend. Can't get my head around how it was running perfectly, I dismantle the rear to sort indicator then the bike doesn't start! Can't see how the things could be connected but just seems so suspicious given the timing! Will report back.

27-04-2018, 03:36 AM	#11
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,038	As Gazza points out there are some safety cut outs that will prevent the bike starting. If it thinks it is in gear (neutral light not lit) or if it thinks the side stand down. There is also one on the clutch which will override the neutral light and allow you to start the bike in gear if you pull the clutch. If any of those switches fail it can cause starting issues. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

27-04-2018, 04:49 AM	#12
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,715	The cutout logic changed from year to year. My ‘02 620 wouldn’t run at all with the stand down. Quite annoying for warm up in the morning. My ‘03 1000s were ok to warm up on the stand, lucky neighbours! Once you’ve eliminated the neutral light, as described above, you can eliminate/diagnose a sidestand switch by tracing the wire back to the connector. It’s a 3-pin ‘superseal’, near the front engine mounting bolt on left. Only 2 pins are used. Unplug it and short out the pins on the ‘bike side’ with a bit of wire or a paperclip. Worth flooding the clutch microswich with WD40, these can get full of road dirt. they’re also easy to damage when swapping levers. Last edited by slob; 27-04-2018 at 04:52 AM..

27-04-2018, 08:56 AM	#13
WhisperingWasp Registered User Join Date: May 2015 Location: Northampton Bike: M620sie Posts: 49	Thanks all. So are we saying that the neutral light should be on before the bike is started? Rather than lighting up when the bike is running?

27-04-2018, 10:55 AM	#14
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,038	Yes, if its not then that is likely the cause. Pull clutch in and it may start that way. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

27-04-2018, 11:25 AM	#15
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,715	If you’re lucky it’s just a dirty/corroded connector at the back of the gearbox. Later models have a rubber grommet on the cable to keep the **** out. All the idiot lights should come on as you turn the key, to show they’re working then go out leaving just the oil light an neutral light on. Obviously the oil light should go out within about a second of turning the engine over.