Slow Monster rebuild - Page 73

350TSS · 16-01-2020, 05:12 PM

I planned today to get the barrels and heads on and then move onto cambelts and flywheel.
I spent the first hour getting the gasket faces top and bottom of the barrels spotless. The Haynes manual recommends a smear of gasket goo either side of the base gasket and also to grease the cylinder head studs (given the corrosion on the horizontal ones this seemed like a good plan).
Next I installed my new ring compressor and it worked a treat getting the three rings inside the vertical barrel with no dramas or cracking ring sounds. It took about 5 minutes, it was then I encountered a significant issue, with the oil control ring engaged in the barrel there was insufficient room to extract the tool, also the lugs that the ratchet pliers engage with would not go past the cylinder studs.
It was very messy for a while with copaslip and threebond gasket goo on every surface except the studs and the base gasket. Eventually I got it out and re-applied grease and goo.

Moving onto the horizontal cylinder I decided to try a Dukedesmo clone tool but a) I did not have a jubilee clip big enough ( this I solved by joining 3 jubilee clips) and b) I had no thin strip steel to slide under the compound jubilee clip (so I used some 1mm polypropylene).

I must have spent 3 hours trying to get the barrel down, the first two rings went in every time but the oil control ring just resolutely failed to engage.
I think it as a combination of issues that was making it difficult, 1. the three screw heads on the jubilee clip were just too large to fit neatly inside the the cylinder studs so the piston was always attacking the barrel at a very slight angle and 2. the polypropylene whilst excellent at sliding down the piston was just not quite stiff enough to deal with the oil control ring which is much less springy than the 2 compression rings.
I was very nervous about torquing the heads down as the last thing I wanted was to break a stud (although the studs probably break when hot through differential expansion of the alloy barrel and head and the SS stud).

Both heads torqued down was as far as I got today.

jerry · 17-01-2020, 06:06 AM

i have bought 2 blind puller sets over the years one was sealey the other generic and a slide hammer kit,, all a waste of money and now sold, none did the job of getting blind bearings out .

350TSS · 17-01-2020, 04:16 PM

A day spent removing historic corrosion, the belt pulleys were put away in plastic chinese takeaway boxes as they came off and when I came to fit them today they had not got any better for sitting in the boxes.
I used these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283582449034
They are quite effective but last no time at all and you seem to spend more time changing them than using them. Eye protection is essential.
When I fitted the pulleys to the jack shaft I was quite surprised by the amount of rotational movement of the pulley on the jack shaft. The woodruff key is in good condition and the keyway in the pulley is pristine (not worn or chaffed) but the pulley has about 1 degree rotational freedom.

Next I moved to change the 4 bearings on the moveable belt adjusters (2 bearings on each). The old bearings rotated freely enough but there was considerable corrosion on the outside which contacts the back of the belt. The bearings were very reluctant to move having corrosion between the post they sit on and the inner race. After about an hour they eventually succumbed to a combination of a Clarke bearing puller and a hammer.
Does anyone know whether these 4 belt adjustment bearings are/should be C3 specification?

I have 4 new non C3 bearings but do not want to fit them until I know which spec should be used.

I also fitted new fixed bearings, but before doing so thought I had better run a 8mm tap down all belt bearing stud holes. First because I had to weld nuts to original fixed bearings to get them out and second beause I painted the engine without protecting the stud threads.
One of the adjuster stud holes was extremely tight when the tap was inserted and when I came to remove the tap, I realised why. That hole had a thread insert which was unwinding out of its hole as the tap came out. Obviously a repair undertaken prior to my ownership. I managed to thread the insert back in and fixed it with some permanent grade loctite.
As usual not as much progress as I hoped when I started the day but we are creeping slowly towards the end game.

Luddite · 17-01-2020, 05:28 PM

I don't know if this helps, but Stein Dinse's alternative to the standard M900 bearings (70240691A) is this

i.e. SKF 6201-2RSH (no mention of C3 anywhere)

Mr Gazza · 17-01-2020, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 350TSS

Obviously a repair undertaken prior to my ownership.

Ducati fitted inserts as standard, to the tensioner locking bolt threads.

Dukedesmo · 18-01-2020, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

Ducati fitted inserts as standard, to the tensioner locking bolt threads.

Mine has inserts for the pulley bolts (as do the ST2 cylinders lurking in my garage) so I assume that it was how Ducati did it originally? - makes sense to do so rather than relying on threads in the ally I suppose.

As for ring compression, as you said there isn't the room to get (most) proprietary tools in which is why I used the shim/jubilee setup which, if nice and oily works a treat and easy to remove once seated.

Nice to see the progress.

350TSS · 17-01-2020, 05:29 PM

Thanks mate - just the same as the ones I have in stock

Luddite · 17-01-2020, 05:32 PM

Result! .

350TSS · 18-01-2020, 02:29 PM

Thanks Mr G
I got my 4 bearings onto the adjuster plates and thought it was about time to fit the belts. One slight problem though is that in removing the original rubber inside belt covers I have lost my datum marks for the belt timing.
Puzzling how to overcome this I found this interesting article:
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/camtiming.php

I have a degree disc and a dial gauge so I should be able to find TDC and the point of maximum lift of the cams provided I make up some sort of holding device above the valve stem. One thing I shall not be doing is re-setting all the valve clearances to 1mm and then re-setting them.
I bet you cannot wait for next week's exciting instalment.

350TSS · 19-01-2020, 05:10 PM

SWMBO went to see my daughter at uni today so unuually for a Sunday I had a few hours in the garage.
When I had the exhaust made by MADASL I bought these off him (adjustable camshaft belt pulleys)

and after studying the the Ducati up North article I thought I may as well learn to use them and get my valve timing spot on rather than just setting them in ther middle of their adjustment and fitting them.

First job was to set up a timing disc so I cut a 13mm length of 25mm hex aluminium bar and bored it 17mm to fit over the crankshaft end to provide a flat base to mount the disc, an 8mm nut and bolt and some large penny washers secured it to the end of the crankshaft.

Next I cut a 95mm length of 15mm hex aluminium bar and interrnally threaded it 6mm both ends, installed a stud to attach to the crankcase and a short allen head bolt the other end to affix the pointer(made from a ground up penny washer).

To get the cam timing spot on (and the same for both cylinders) I need to find the point of maximum lift on the inlet camshaft and the only way I can think of doing this is with a dial gauge on the top of the valve stem (opening rocker valve cap).
There are two problems with this, first, the actual rocker almost completely masks the valve cap, I think I have got round this by making up a 30mm length of 15mm hex brass that sits on the outer extremities of the valve cap and still allows the rocker to operate. I drilled the hex brass 9mm x 20mm deep and angle ground out a slot to clear the rocker. I threaded the other end 4mm to allow me to screw in the pointer on the end of my dial gauge.

The second problem is that I need a secure and fixed position above the gasket face where I can fix the gauge. This needs to be directly above the valve stem so that I can measure the movement of the valve and needs to have a degree of adjustment so that the dial gauge can be positioned where it will record the maximum movement.

The trouble is the valve stem emerges above the gasket face at an angle of about 60 degrees to the gasket face. The mounting arrangement problem I have not yet solved.

I also managed to put the 4 bearings on the cam belt tensioners and as soon as I have worked out how to mount the dial gauge the belts can go on.

slob · 19-01-2020, 06:27 PM

I made up a stand for my dial guage (1) and a foot sit on the closer shim (6)

(5) is a piston stop that allowed me to accurately find tdc

feeler gauge is used to eliminate clearance during measurement.

a few minor differences between 900 & 1000 but the principles are the same

Flip · 19-01-2020, 09:09 PM

Firstly I have to say how much I love this thread and I am sure the bike is going to look fantastic when complete.

However, not wanting to throw the proverbial spanner in the works- I changed my timing belt idler bearings in 2018 and fitted a pair of ExactFit belts which I bought at the same time. The bearings supplied (ExactFit are the UK distributers for California Cycle Works) were indeed spec’d as C3, which made sense to me as they run in a pretty hot place.

They’ve been on without issue (touch wood) for around 8000 miles now but I’ll probably take a look behind the covers in a couple of weeks when I give the bike an oil change etc.

Out of interest (Sorry if I missed it), did you find an alternative source for the double sized fixed bearings or did you bite the bullet and pay Ducati’s price?

In addition from what I gather it is often the clutch pressure plate bearing which wrongly gets spec’d as C3.

350TSS · 19-01-2020, 11:33 PM

Thanks Flip - nice to be appreciated.
Re the tensioner bearings I think that is why I asked the question as I had a nagging doubt as to whether C3 spec bearings were required - however as Stein Dinse show a picture of non C3 bearings that is what I bought (SKF bearings from Simply Bearings about a year ago for about half the SD price)
The original Ducati bearings have no electrically etched numbers or identification on them at all.
I am in a quandary now, I think you are right C3 bearings are probably the better specification for the application, but I also think that SD probably consulted Ducati as to the replacement types and offered non C3 as the replacement ( because the originals were non C3). If I am wrong then the bearings could overheat and seize and bugger up/break the belts and f*** ** the motor.
If I am right and I leave them there I am no worse off than a brand new Ducati M900 owner.

With regard to the fixed bearings I could find no alternatives and paid Moto Rapido prices less 10% UKMOC discount which was a lot less then SD - about £33 each compared to £48 each from SD.

Luddite · 20-01-2020, 02:10 AM

I see this bearing question was raised on another forum

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/thread...earings.50724/

and you may recognise a couple of the contributers' names there (our own Dukedesmo and Nasher to be precise). Neither has mentioned a need for C3 but perhaps they could confirm what spec they actually used if they are reading this.

Dukedesmo · 22-01-2020, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luddite

I see this bearing question was raised on another forum

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/thread...earings.50724/

and you may recognise a couple of the contributers' names there (our own Dukedesmo and Nasher to be precise). Neither has mentioned a need for C3 but perhaps they could confirm what spec they actually used if they are reading this.

Not 100% certain now but, I think I used C3 bearings in both the Monster (for the movable pulley) and 916 belt tensioners, based on the reasoning of the heat due to speed/constant running and that they are not lubricated. I still have the original (to me) fixed 'special' pulley bearings of unknown age/mileage but at the last check (last year) were fine.

Otherwise the Monster has done 14k miles on the ones I swapped and the 916 - 50k miles although is on it's second set of bearings - that said when I swapped them at, IIRC 30k ish miles they were fine and showed no signs of wear. I mainly changed them as I fitted larger fixed pulleys (to allow for head skim/tuning/shorter belt run) and so did the adjustables at the same time as part of preventative maintenance.

16-01-2020, 05:12 PM	#1
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	I planned today to get the barrels and heads on and then move onto cambelts and flywheel. I spent the first hour getting the gasket faces top and bottom of the barrels spotless. The Haynes manual recommends a smear of gasket goo either side of the base gasket and also to grease the cylinder head studs (given the corrosion on the horizontal ones this seemed like a good plan). Next I installed my new ring compressor and it worked a treat getting the three rings inside the vertical barrel with no dramas or cracking ring sounds. It took about 5 minutes, it was then I encountered a significant issue, with the oil control ring engaged in the barrel there was insufficient room to extract the tool, also the lugs that the ratchet pliers engage with would not go past the cylinder studs. It was very messy for a while with copaslip and threebond gasket goo on every surface except the studs and the base gasket. Eventually I got it out and re-applied grease and goo. Moving onto the horizontal cylinder I decided to try a Dukedesmo clone tool but a) I did not have a jubilee clip big enough ( this I solved by joining 3 jubilee clips) and b) I had no thin strip steel to slide under the compound jubilee clip (so I used some 1mm polypropylene). I must have spent 3 hours trying to get the barrel down, the first two rings went in every time but the oil control ring just resolutely failed to engage. I think it as a combination of issues that was making it difficult, 1. the three screw heads on the jubilee clip were just too large to fit neatly inside the the cylinder studs so the piston was always attacking the barrel at a very slight angle and 2. the polypropylene whilst excellent at sliding down the piston was just not quite stiff enough to deal with the oil control ring which is much less springy than the 2 compression rings. I was very nervous about torquing the heads down as the last thing I wanted was to break a stud (although the studs probably break when hot through differential expansion of the alloy barrel and head and the SS stud). Both heads torqued down was as far as I got today. Last edited by 350TSS; 16-01-2020 at 05:26 PM..

17-01-2020, 06:06 AM	#2
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,826	i have bought 2 blind puller sets over the years one was sealey the other generic and a slide hammer kit,, all a waste of money and now sold, none did the job of getting blind bearings out . __________________ MONSTERMAN

19-01-2020, 09:09 PM	#12
Flip Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Beachtown Bike: M900 Posts: 2,188	Firstly I have to say how much I love this thread and I am sure the bike is going to look fantastic when complete. However, not wanting to throw the proverbial spanner in the works- I changed my timing belt idler bearings in 2018 and fitted a pair of ExactFit belts which I bought at the same time. The bearings supplied (ExactFit are the UK distributers for California Cycle Works) were indeed spec’d as C3, which made sense to me as they run in a pretty hot place. They’ve been on without issue (touch wood) for around 8000 miles now but I’ll probably take a look behind the covers in a couple of weeks when I give the bike an oil change etc. Out of interest (Sorry if I missed it), did you find an alternative source for the double sized fixed bearings or did you bite the bullet and pay Ducati’s price? In addition from what I gather it is often the clutch pressure plate bearing which wrongly gets spec’d as C3. __________________ You're perfect, yes, it's true- But without me you're only you! Last edited by Flip; 19-01-2020 at 09:18 PM..

17-01-2020, 04:16 PM	#3
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	A day spent removing historic corrosion, the belt pulleys were put away in plastic chinese takeaway boxes as they came off and when I came to fit them today they had not got any better for sitting in the boxes. I used these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283582449034 They are quite effective but last no time at all and you seem to spend more time changing them than using them. Eye protection is essential. When I fitted the pulleys to the jack shaft I was quite surprised by the amount of rotational movement of the pulley on the jack shaft. The woodruff key is in good condition and the keyway in the pulley is pristine (not worn or chaffed) but the pulley has about 1 degree rotational freedom. Next I moved to change the 4 bearings on the moveable belt adjusters (2 bearings on each). The old bearings rotated freely enough but there was considerable corrosion on the outside which contacts the back of the belt. The bearings were very reluctant to move having corrosion between the post they sit on and the inner race. After about an hour they eventually succumbed to a combination of a Clarke bearing puller and a hammer. Does anyone know whether these 4 belt adjustment bearings are/should be C3 specification? I have 4 new non C3 bearings but do not want to fit them until I know which spec should be used. I also fitted new fixed bearings, but before doing so thought I had better run a 8mm tap down all belt bearing stud holes. First because I had to weld nuts to original fixed bearings to get them out and second beause I painted the engine without protecting the stud threads. One of the adjuster stud holes was extremely tight when the tap was inserted and when I came to remove the tap, I realised why. That hole had a thread insert which was unwinding out of its hole as the tap came out. Obviously a repair undertaken prior to my ownership. I managed to thread the insert back in and fixed it with some permanent grade loctite. As usual not as much progress as I hoped when I started the day but we are creeping slowly towards the end game.

17-01-2020, 05:28 PM	#4
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	I don't know if this helps, but Stein Dinse's alternative to the standard M900 bearings (70240691A) is this i.e. SKF 6201-2RSH (no mention of C3 anywhere)

17-01-2020, 05:29 PM	#7
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	Thanks mate - just the same as the ones I have in stock

17-01-2020, 05:32 PM	#8
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	Result! .

18-01-2020, 02:29 PM	#9
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	Thanks Mr G I got my 4 bearings onto the adjuster plates and thought it was about time to fit the belts. One slight problem though is that in removing the original rubber inside belt covers I have lost my datum marks for the belt timing. Puzzling how to overcome this I found this interesting article: http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/camtiming.php I have a degree disc and a dial gauge so I should be able to find TDC and the point of maximum lift of the cams provided I make up some sort of holding device above the valve stem. One thing I shall not be doing is re-setting all the valve clearances to 1mm and then re-setting them. I bet you cannot wait for next week's exciting instalment.

19-01-2020, 05:10 PM	#10
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	SWMBO went to see my daughter at uni today so unuually for a Sunday I had a few hours in the garage. When I had the exhaust made by MADASL I bought these off him (adjustable camshaft belt pulleys) and after studying the the Ducati up North article I thought I may as well learn to use them and get my valve timing spot on rather than just setting them in ther middle of their adjustment and fitting them. First job was to set up a timing disc so I cut a 13mm length of 25mm hex aluminium bar and bored it 17mm to fit over the crankshaft end to provide a flat base to mount the disc, an 8mm nut and bolt and some large penny washers secured it to the end of the crankshaft. Next I cut a 95mm length of 15mm hex aluminium bar and interrnally threaded it 6mm both ends, installed a stud to attach to the crankcase and a short allen head bolt the other end to affix the pointer(made from a ground up penny washer). To get the cam timing spot on (and the same for both cylinders) I need to find the point of maximum lift on the inlet camshaft and the only way I can think of doing this is with a dial gauge on the top of the valve stem (opening rocker valve cap). There are two problems with this, first, the actual rocker almost completely masks the valve cap, I think I have got round this by making up a 30mm length of 15mm hex brass that sits on the outer extremities of the valve cap and still allows the rocker to operate. I drilled the hex brass 9mm x 20mm deep and angle ground out a slot to clear the rocker. I threaded the other end 4mm to allow me to screw in the pointer on the end of my dial gauge. The second problem is that I need a secure and fixed position above the gasket face where I can fix the gauge. This needs to be directly above the valve stem so that I can measure the movement of the valve and needs to have a degree of adjustment so that the dial gauge can be positioned where it will record the maximum movement. The trouble is the valve stem emerges above the gasket face at an angle of about 60 degrees to the gasket face. The mounting arrangement problem I have not yet solved. I also managed to put the 4 bearings on the cam belt tensioners and as soon as I have worked out how to mount the dial gauge the belts can go on.

19-01-2020, 06:27 PM	#11
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,713	I made up a stand for my dial guage (1) and a foot sit on the closer shim (6) (5) is a piston stop that allowed me to accurately find tdc feeler gauge is used to eliminate clearance during measurement. a few minor differences between 900 & 1000 but the principles are the same

19-01-2020, 11:33 PM	#13
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	Thanks Flip - nice to be appreciated. Re the tensioner bearings I think that is why I asked the question as I had a nagging doubt as to whether C3 spec bearings were required - however as Stein Dinse show a picture of non C3 bearings that is what I bought (SKF bearings from Simply Bearings about a year ago for about half the SD price) The original Ducati bearings have no electrically etched numbers or identification on them at all. I am in a quandary now, I think you are right C3 bearings are probably the better specification for the application, but I also think that SD probably consulted Ducati as to the replacement types and offered non C3 as the replacement ( because the originals were non C3). If I am wrong then the bearings could overheat and seize and bugger up/break the belts and f* the motor. If I am right and I leave them there I am no worse off than a brand new Ducati M900 owner. With regard to the fixed bearings I could find no alternatives and paid Moto Rapido prices less 10% UKMOC discount which was a lot less then SD - about £33 each compared to £48 each from SD.

20-01-2020, 02:10 AM	#14
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	I see this bearing question was raised on another forum https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/thread...earings.50724/ and you may recognise a couple of the contributers' names there (our own Dukedesmo and Nasher to be precise). Neither has mentioned a need for C3 but perhaps they could confirm what spec they actually used if they are reading this.