Tdc?

Joshua Brew · 27-04-2020, 06:25 PM

Hi guys. On the 1100 Evo, without the crank tool to turn the engine over to find TDC on each cylinder, what’s the best way to ensure you have TDC? You can line up the mark on the lower pulley to the crank case but this only gives TDC on the horizontal cylinder. As far as I can see there are no marks to align for the vertical Cylinder. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Luddite · 27-04-2020, 07:24 PM

If you're looking to position the engine for belt replacement, unscrew the centre inspection screws (the one between the mounting screws (21) from the camshaft end caps (20).

Line up the crankshaft mark. Get two 6mm drill bits and insert a shank into each cam cap. If the front cylinder is in the correct position then the drills will engage into holes in the cam ends and lock them in place. If you're unsure, remove the drills, rotate the crankshaft 360° and try again. You can also use a torch and look through the screw holes. You should be able to see the cam holes when they're in the right position.

The camshaft holes will only align with both the end cap holes when the crankshaft is in the correct position.

If you need to then position the vertical cylinder at tdc on the power stroke, then just rotate the crankshaft a further 270° from the horizontal cylinder tdc power position.

Joshua Brew · 27-04-2020, 07:37 PM

Thanks for the info that is great for when I do change the belts. I am in the process of checking the valve clearances. But it has me a little confused! With the mark lined up to the mark on the crank case, is this TDC for the horizontal cylinder? If so then the clearances are ok for this cylinder. I can only seem to get any clearances on the vertical cylinder if I rotate the crank clockwise 90deg. Does this make any sense? Are you suppose to turn the engine anti-clockwise?

Luddite · 27-04-2020, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Brew

I can only seem to get any clearances on the vertical cylinder if I rotate the crank clockwise 90deg. Does this make any sense? Are you suppose to turn the engine anti-clockwise?

Sorry, Joshua, I should have said that the 270° was anticlockwise so equivalent to 90° clockwise.

When the mark is lined up on the crankshaft, it is tdc power stroke for the horizontal cylinder (assuming the camshaft holes also line up.of course).

Brad the Bike Boy has some good instructional videos on valve adjustment:

Luddite · 27-04-2020, 08:27 PM

Here are copies of the relevant pages from the workshop manual, in case you haven't already got access to them:

Joshua Brew · 27-04-2020, 08:40 PM

Ok that’s great! So just to clarify... when turning the back wheel clockwise as if the bike was moving forward, this in turn spins the crankshaft anti clockwise?

Luddite · 27-04-2020, 10:19 PM

Confusing, isn't it?!

So, if you're looking at the bike from the left side (facing forward) and turning the crankshaft forward with the crank turning tool, the crank turns anticlockwise, as will the rear wheel, if it's in gear.

Going round to the right side looking at the belts, when the engine is turning forwards, the drive shaft pulley rotates in the opposite direction to the crankshaft and at half its speed. To the observer on the left side, it will still rotate anticlockwise.

So, turning the crankshaft 270° anticlockwise (viewed from the left), will cause the drive shaft pulley to rotate 135° anticlockwise (viewed from the right).

If you look at this video from Brad (at 4:26) he sets the vertical cylinder to tdc by rotating the drive shaft pulley anticlockwise until the timing mark is pointing forward at 3 o'clock i.e. 135° from the horizontal cylinder's base position at between 7 and 8 o'clock.

Hope that helps!

Stevedesmo · 28-04-2020, 09:42 AM

As you’ve got the spark plugs out to enable you to turn the engine over easily, the simplest method is to put a long screwdriver or similar down the plug hole and feel the piston rise up the bore
TDC is easily detected when you feel the piston “on the rock” at the top of the stroke, just be careful to keep the screwdriver from jamming if it gets out of line with the plug hole bore
Then the only thing to be aware of is that you’re looking for TDC on the compression stroke and not the top of the exhaust stroke

Darren69 · 28-04-2020, 09:54 AM

A piece of wood or plastic might be better than a screwdriver?

slob · 28-04-2020, 10:14 AM

At compression stroke TDC you’ll feel play in both rocker arms, as both valves will be shut.
The TDC between exhaust and intake strokes will have both valves open, the rocker arms will be pressed down and have no free play in them.
After you’ve done this once or twice, it’ll seem so obvious you’ll hardly think about it.

Darren69 · 28-04-2020, 12:41 PM

This looks like a good book:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Barons-Ulti...8077475&sr=8-1

Anyone got one? BTW It's cheaper elsewhere than Amazon though.

Joshua Brew · 28-04-2020, 03:23 PM

Thanks for all the advice guys. it all makes sense now.

Joshua Brew · 29-04-2020, 05:39 PM

Hello everyone! I’ve checked the clearances and here is what I found.
HC intake open-0.11 close-0.09 exhaust open-0.13 close-0.1
VC intake open-0.1 close-0.08 exhaust open-0.12 close 0.12
The exhaust clearance seem a bit excessive to me. What do you guys think. Would you adjust them all or just the closing shims?

Joshua Brew · 29-04-2020, 06:25 PM

I only had the valves adjusted around 3000 miles ago. Would there be a reason the closers are adjusted this way? I can’t imagine they have worn this much in that amount of time. I’m sure the spec is 0-0.05 in the manual.

slob · 29-04-2020, 06:35 PM

Depends how hard you use it and whether whoever looked at it last time changed them, if it was only just out of spec. they may have decided 'near enough', did you get an itemised bill?
... but it certainly looks like all four closers could use a 0.05mm bigger shim, the openers are all within spec. (from memory I think it's 0.10 - 0.15mm)

I use one of these sheets http://www.thelasturl.net/ukmoc/Desm...tDatasheet.xls to keep track of my services so I can always refer back to what was previously changed

also, did you rotate the engine again and re-check, to make sure your measurements are accurate?

27-04-2020, 06:25 PM	#1
Joshua Brew Registered User Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Wrexham Bike: M1100evo Posts: 55	Tdc? Hi guys. On the 1100 Evo, without the crank tool to turn the engine over to find TDC on each cylinder, what’s the best way to ensure you have TDC? You can line up the mark on the lower pulley to the crank case but this only gives TDC on the horizontal cylinder. As far as I can see there are no marks to align for the vertical Cylinder. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

27-04-2020, 10:19 PM	#7
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	Confusing, isn't it?! So, if you're looking at the bike from the left side (facing forward) and turning the crankshaft forward with the crank turning tool, the crank turns anticlockwise, as will the rear wheel, if it's in gear. Going round to the right side looking at the belts, when the engine is turning forwards, the drive shaft pulley rotates in the opposite direction to the crankshaft and at half its speed. To the observer on the left side, it will still rotate anticlockwise. So, turning the crankshaft 270° anticlockwise (viewed from the left), will cause the drive shaft pulley to rotate 135° anticlockwise (viewed from the right). If you look at this video from Brad (at 4:26) he sets the vertical cylinder to tdc by rotating the drive shaft pulley anticlockwise until the timing mark is pointing forward at 3 o'clock i.e. 135° from the horizontal cylinder's base position at between 7 and 8 o'clock. Hope that helps! Last edited by Luddite; 28-04-2020 at 09:09 AM.. Reason: clarified pulley positions

28-04-2020, 09:54 AM	#9
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	A piece of wood or plastic might be better than a screwdriver? __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

28-04-2020, 12:41 PM	#11
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	This looks like a good book:- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Barons-Ulti...8077475&sr=8-1 Anyone got one? BTW It's cheaper elsewhere than Amazon though. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

27-04-2020, 07:24 PM	#2
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	If you're looking to position the engine for belt replacement, unscrew the centre inspection screws (the one between the mounting screws (21) from the camshaft end caps (20). Line up the crankshaft mark. Get two 6mm drill bits and insert a shank into each cam cap. If the front cylinder is in the correct position then the drills will engage into holes in the cam ends and lock them in place. If you're unsure, remove the drills, rotate the crankshaft 360° and try again. You can also use a torch and look through the screw holes. You should be able to see the cam holes when they're in the right position. The camshaft holes will only align with both the end cap holes when the crankshaft is in the correct position. If you need to then position the vertical cylinder at tdc on the power stroke, then just rotate the crankshaft a further 270° from the horizontal cylinder tdc power position.

27-04-2020, 07:37 PM	#3
Joshua Brew Registered User Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Wrexham Bike: M1100evo Posts: 55	Thanks for the info that is great for when I do change the belts. I am in the process of checking the valve clearances. But it has me a little confused! With the mark lined up to the mark on the crank case, is this TDC for the horizontal cylinder? If so then the clearances are ok for this cylinder. I can only seem to get any clearances on the vertical cylinder if I rotate the crank clockwise 90deg. Does this make any sense? Are you suppose to turn the engine anti-clockwise?

27-04-2020, 08:27 PM	#5
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	Here are copies of the relevant pages from the workshop manual, in case you haven't already got access to them:

27-04-2020, 08:40 PM	#6
Joshua Brew Registered User Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Wrexham Bike: M1100evo Posts: 55	Ok that’s great! So just to clarify... when turning the back wheel clockwise as if the bike was moving forward, this in turn spins the crankshaft anti clockwise?

28-04-2020, 09:42 AM	#8
Stevedesmo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: wirral Bike: S4r Posts: 50	As you’ve got the spark plugs out to enable you to turn the engine over easily, the simplest method is to put a long screwdriver or similar down the plug hole and feel the piston rise up the bore TDC is easily detected when you feel the piston “on the rock” at the top of the stroke, just be careful to keep the screwdriver from jamming if it gets out of line with the plug hole bore Then the only thing to be aware of is that you’re looking for TDC on the compression stroke and not the top of the exhaust stroke

28-04-2020, 10:14 AM	#10
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,710	At compression stroke TDC you’ll feel play in both rocker arms, as both valves will be shut. The TDC between exhaust and intake strokes will have both valves open, the rocker arms will be pressed down and have no free play in them. After you’ve done this once or twice, it’ll seem so obvious you’ll hardly think about it.

28-04-2020, 03:23 PM	#12
Joshua Brew Registered User Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Wrexham Bike: M1100evo Posts: 55	Thanks for all the advice guys. it all makes sense now.

29-04-2020, 05:39 PM	#13
Joshua Brew Registered User Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Wrexham Bike: M1100evo Posts: 55	Hello everyone! I’ve checked the clearances and here is what I found. HC intake open-0.11 close-0.09 exhaust open-0.13 close-0.1 VC intake open-0.1 close-0.08 exhaust open-0.12 close 0.12 The exhaust clearance seem a bit excessive to me. What do you guys think. Would you adjust them all or just the closing shims?

29-04-2020, 06:25 PM	#14
Joshua Brew Registered User Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Wrexham Bike: M1100evo Posts: 55	I only had the valves adjusted around 3000 miles ago. Would there be a reason the closers are adjusted this way? I can’t imagine they have worn this much in that amount of time. I’m sure the spec is 0-0.05 in the manual.

29-04-2020, 06:35 PM	#15
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,710	Depends how hard you use it and whether whoever looked at it last time changed them, if it was only just out of spec. they may have decided 'near enough', did you get an itemised bill? ... but it certainly looks like all four closers could use a 0.05mm bigger shim, the openers are all within spec. (from memory I think it's 0.10 - 0.15mm) I use one of these sheets http://www.thelasturl.net/ukmoc/Desm...tDatasheet.xls to keep track of my services so I can always refer back to what was previously changed also, did you rotate the engine again and re-check, to make sure your measurements are accurate?