Crankcase breather removal.

Mr Gazza · 30-05-2015, 09:47 PM

Two questions;

1) Is the standard M series crankcase breather made of metal or plastic?

2) Does it require a special tool to remove it?

I imagine it needs something like a box spanner due to the close proximity of the cylinder fins.

I have not tried to remove it myself, but I asked Carl Harrison (renouned local Ducati Specialist) to take it off for a clean when I had the valves done last Winter.
He said that he tried, but daren't heave on it enough to move it as it was so "FT"

I am hoping that if I persuade it enough with the right tool with a hot engine that I can get it to budge. But if it is made of plastic, I am concerned that it will break and leave the threaded part in the engine,or worse, drop broken bits into the cases.

Any tips greatly recieved....Thanks.

Dukedesmo · 30-05-2015, 10:25 PM

I have seen two types; one made of plastic with an alloy 'ring' around it - these tend to leak around the alloy apart, the other is completely plastic.

The old plastic/alloy type have holes around the base for a 'C' spanner whilst the plastic type have flats on them for a spanner but you may need a hammer and drift to remove as they can be tight (and may be loctited/threebonded in).

Shouldn't break and drop inside and it isn't just a straight hole anyway - there is a kind of 'shelf' but even if it snapped off you could cut the plastic part out easily enough - although you would obviously need a new breather...

slob · 30-05-2015, 10:41 PM

if it's all plastic, take the hose off and look down the top. i have a nagging memoey of a large hex inside.

Mr Gazza · 31-05-2015, 09:09 AM

Thank you DD and Rob for your useful info.

I do have a replacement, which is the reason for the removal.

The new one is alloy and does have a hex inside the tube.

The original has the external flats. So I guess that makes it an all plastic one.

Carl very sensibly did not give it the big heave ho, as his experience told him that it might bust, and there was no particular pressing need to get it off at the time.

Just need to find a suitable box spanner, or possibly an oil filter gripper and hope for the best...Good to know about the "shelf". If it does bust at least I can push some plasticene or somat down the 'ole to stop bits going in when I chop the rest out.

Why on earth would anyone bond it in? It can't turn with a pipe clipped to it.

Anyone know of a proper tool? (for the breather....

)

Dirty · 31-05-2015, 10:23 AM

I don't believe they are removable on the sie model without cutting the cases in half in a month with an R in it

So 1st dibs please

Mr Gazza · 31-05-2015, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty

I don't believe they are removable on the sie model without cutting the cases in half in a month with an R in it

So 1st dibs please

Gosh.!

Thanks for the info Dirty......I'll let you know how I get on at the end of September...

Dukedesmo · 31-05-2015, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

Why on earth would anyone bond it in? It can't turn with a pipe clipped to it.

To stop it leaking? I use threebond on the threads, although that won't bond it but I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of Loctite.

The flats on the plastic breather will likely deform with a spanner so an oil filter removal band maybe the neatest option.

I would suggest your man didn't want to force it for fear of damaging the flats rather than it actually breaking off inside as they are quite thick/sturdy but if you're not worried about the cosmetics then using a pipe wrench/big grips should shift it. There just there isn't much room around it, especially on the air cooled engines (much more room on a fin-less water cooled).

Here are a couple of pics that might help'

View from above showing the 'shelf';

Inside view (top right);

Although you may not want to go quite this far!!

Darren69 · 31-05-2015, 11:15 AM

I seem to recall on my old '93 900ss that it was the all plastic type and I wrapped some rags around it and used pipe grips. You can seal it using normal silicon sealent or liquid gasket to stop leaks. Have not attempted to remove the metal band type one on my S4 yet though.

Mr Gazza · 31-05-2015, 12:05 PM

Wow! thanks for the pictures DukeDesmo....Looks like any bits would find their way to the sump plug without too much trouble.
I pictured the hole being directly above the gears.

Looks like a filter strap is the way forward..I have just tried mine on without turning it, and I think it's going to work.

The flats are a 51mm Octagon. So something like an immersion heater (Sadly@86mm) box spanner would be ideal....But as far as I can tell no such thing has been invented yet.

When the new one arrives I will get down to business with it...If it won't shift then I guess Dirty will be a happy chap....

Mr Gazza · 03-06-2015, 05:40 PM

The new breather arrived, so I set about getting the old one off.

I have an old filter removing tool of the webbing strap kind. I used it for something I didn't oughta, some time ago, and ended up gluing the strap back together by flooding an overlap with superglue.....So now it has a big crusty clod in it!

It's a bit restricted in there round the breather, with the barrel and the frame tubes, but with patience and some dexterity, I managed to get the stap positioned nicely round the breather. Winding it up needs a ratchet, due to the limited swing available between the frame tubes, and I needed to adjust it a bit as I wound it up....You mustn't be in a rush!...I felt a bit like the Gynacologist who wallpapered his hall through his letterbox, but...Once it was really tight, it cracked off really easily. No damage whatsoever to the breather.

This looks like the way to get breathers off. But be carefull with the ratchet bar on the frame tubes....Best to wrap them up with tape or sumat before too much wrenching.

There was no sealer or loctite on the threads. Just an O-ring under the base...Must have just been racked up tight.

Looking at the breather, it is clear that a box spanner would not work, as the flats are over hung by the breather body. An open ender is the only tool that would engage, but the options of angle of attack are crippled by the frame tubes and barrel. The flats are quite small (and plastic), so as Dukedesmo suggested, I think they would round off fairly easily with only two in use.

So there you go...easy when you know how........And now we do...

Dennis menace · 04-06-2015, 02:10 PM

Blimey! Mine was hand tight and came off easily when I wanted to clean the casings, I just unscrewed it by hand. I must have been lucky. Good to know the strap wrench technique works though.

Darren69 · 16-05-2020, 02:57 PM

Sorry for the thread resurrection. But I'm thinking of having a go at the one on my S4. Its a plastic one with the hex at the base and a metal band around the middle. Did you use the strap wrench around the metal part? I'm guessing that you would have but was wondering if it's just crimped onto the plastic it will just spin.

Mr Gazza · 16-05-2020, 04:42 PM

I'm fairly sure mine was all plastic. It's fairly buried now, so I think it will take a while to find.
It might be worth a look down inside with a dentists mirror or something, (My daughters always use their phones to peep in awkward places) to see if there's a hex for an Allen key in there. I couldn't comment on the metal band, so it's suck it and see I'm afraid.
Hopefully you will find that it's not that tight. It's just a very fiddly business getting the strap in place.
Good luck.

Luddite · 16-05-2020, 05:52 PM

It's a long time ago now but I seem to remember, when I swapped the stock breather on my S2R for the billet DP one, I just unscrewed the original by hand.

Some interesting breather tech here:

http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/breather.php

350TSS · 16-05-2020, 07:11 PM

Thanks, Luddite
What I understand from the article is that the most inefficient engine as far as pumping losses are concerned is a single cylinder. A four-cylinder (or V8), provided the crankcase is unrestricted for movement of pressure within the crankcase has very few pumping losses other than moving the air from one part of the crankcase to the other. A 360-degree twin is essentially the same as a single and a 180-degree twin better but not as good as a four-cylinder.
A 90 degree V twin should be somewhere between the single and the 180-degree twin - towards the single end of the spectrum because of the unequal firing order.
So for maximum bhp efficiency on a V twin, you need the biggest unrestricted breather pipe venting the crankcase to the atmosphere.
You need to stop crud entering the crankcase so the outlet should have some sort of one-way filter and ideally you want to return the oil in suspension with the crankcase pressure exhaust air to be returned to the crankcase. Control of emissions would be a "Californian" (and manufacturer) concern to most legislators but to petrol heads, let's just maximise horsepower. Any oil mist expelled would obviously need to be kept away from the black rubber rings that keep us on two wheels.
If the piston rings are a good fit in the bore and the valve seals are good it sees to be a good plan to de-restrict the breather of reed valves and let the engine breathe rather than wheeze through a 20mm bore pipe/read valve and potentially choke on its own emissions.

30-05-2015, 09:47 PM	#1
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,795	Crankcase breather removal. Two questions; 1) Is the standard M series crankcase breather made of metal or plastic? 2) Does it require a special tool to remove it? I imagine it needs something like a box spanner due to the close proximity of the cylinder fins. I have not tried to remove it myself, but I asked Carl Harrison (renouned local Ducati Specialist) to take it off for a clean when I had the valves done last Winter. He said that he tried, but daren't heave on it enough to move it as it was so "FT" I am hoping that if I persuade it enough with the right tool with a hot engine that I can get it to budge. But if it is made of plastic, I am concerned that it will break and leave the threaded part in the engine,or worse, drop broken bits into the cases. Any tips greatly recieved....Thanks. __________________

30-05-2015, 10:25 PM	#2
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,838	I have seen two types; one made of plastic with an alloy 'ring' around it - these tend to leak around the alloy apart, the other is completely plastic. The old plastic/alloy type have holes around the base for a 'C' spanner whilst the plastic type have flats on them for a spanner but you may need a hammer and drift to remove as they can be tight (and may be loctited/threebonded in). Shouldn't break and drop inside and it isn't just a straight hole anyway - there is a kind of 'shelf' but even if it snapped off you could cut the plastic part out easily enough - although you would obviously need a new breather... __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

31-05-2015, 09:09 AM	#4
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,795	Thank you DD and Rob for your useful info. I do have a replacement, which is the reason for the removal. The new one is alloy and does have a hex inside the tube. The original has the external flats. So I guess that makes it an all plastic one. Carl very sensibly did not give it the big heave ho, as his experience told him that it might bust, and there was no particular pressing need to get it off at the time. Just need to find a suitable box spanner, or possibly an oil filter gripper and hope for the best...Good to know about the "shelf". If it does bust at least I can push some plasticene or somat down the 'ole to stop bits going in when I chop the rest out. Why on earth would anyone bond it in? It can't turn with a pipe clipped to it. Anyone know of a proper tool? (for the breather....) __________________

31-05-2015, 10:23 AM	#5
Dirty Bockloks Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London Bike: No Bike Yet! Posts: 4,601	I don't believe they are removable on the sie model without cutting the cases in half in a month with an R in it So 1st dibs please __________________ Wounds heal, chicks dig scars, glory lasts forever Beware of eBay

31-05-2015, 11:15 AM	#8
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	I seem to recall on my old '93 900ss that it was the all plastic type and I wrapped some rags around it and used pipe grips. You can seal it using normal silicon sealent or liquid gasket to stop leaks. Have not attempted to remove the metal band type one on my S4 yet though. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

30-05-2015, 10:41 PM	#3
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,707	if it's all plastic, take the hose off and look down the top. i have a nagging memoey of a large hex inside.

31-05-2015, 12:05 PM	#9
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,795	Wow! thanks for the pictures DukeDesmo....Looks like any bits would find their way to the sump plug without too much trouble. I pictured the hole being directly above the gears. Looks like a filter strap is the way forward..I have just tried mine on without turning it, and I think it's going to work. The flats are a 51mm Octagon. So something like an immersion heater (Sadly@86mm) box spanner would be ideal....But as far as I can tell no such thing has been invented yet. When the new one arrives I will get down to business with it...If it won't shift then I guess Dirty will be a happy chap.... __________________

03-06-2015, 05:40 PM	#10
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,795	The new breather arrived, so I set about getting the old one off. I have an old filter removing tool of the webbing strap kind. I used it for something I didn't oughta, some time ago, and ended up gluing the strap back together by flooding an overlap with superglue.....So now it has a big crusty clod in it! It's a bit restricted in there round the breather, with the barrel and the frame tubes, but with patience and some dexterity, I managed to get the stap positioned nicely round the breather. Winding it up needs a ratchet, due to the limited swing available between the frame tubes, and I needed to adjust it a bit as I wound it up....You mustn't be in a rush!...I felt a bit like the Gynacologist who wallpapered his hall through his letterbox, but...Once it was really tight, it cracked off really easily. No damage whatsoever to the breather. This looks like the way to get breathers off. But be carefull with the ratchet bar on the frame tubes....Best to wrap them up with tape or sumat before too much wrenching. There was no sealer or loctite on the threads. Just an O-ring under the base...Must have just been racked up tight. Looking at the breather, it is clear that a box spanner would not work, as the flats are over hung by the breather body. An open ender is the only tool that would engage, but the options of angle of attack are crippled by the frame tubes and barrel. The flats are quite small (and plastic), so as Dukedesmo suggested, I think they would round off fairly easily with only two in use. So there you go...easy when you know how........And now we do... __________________

04-06-2015, 02:10 PM	#11
Dennis menace Registered User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Farnsfield Bike: Other Ducati Posts: 300	Blimey! Mine was hand tight and came off easily when I wanted to clean the casings, I just unscrewed it by hand. I must have been lucky. Good to know the strap wrench technique works though.

16-05-2020, 02:57 PM	#12
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	Sorry for the thread resurrection. But I'm thinking of having a go at the one on my S4. Its a plastic one with the hex at the base and a metal band around the middle. Did you use the strap wrench around the metal part? I'm guessing that you would have but was wondering if it's just crimped onto the plastic it will just spin. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

16-05-2020, 04:42 PM	#13
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,795	I'm fairly sure mine was all plastic. It's fairly buried now, so I think it will take a while to find. It might be worth a look down inside with a dentists mirror or something, (My daughters always use their phones to peep in awkward places) to see if there's a hex for an Allen key in there. I couldn't comment on the metal band, so it's suck it and see I'm afraid. Hopefully you will find that it's not that tight. It's just a very fiddly business getting the strap in place. Good luck. __________________

16-05-2020, 05:52 PM	#14
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	It's a long time ago now but I seem to remember, when I swapped the stock breather on my S2R for the billet DP one, I just unscrewed the original by hand. Some interesting breather tech here: http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/breather.php

16-05-2020, 07:11 PM	#15
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	Thanks, Luddite What I understand from the article is that the most inefficient engine as far as pumping losses are concerned is a single cylinder. A four-cylinder (or V8), provided the crankcase is unrestricted for movement of pressure within the crankcase has very few pumping losses other than moving the air from one part of the crankcase to the other. A 360-degree twin is essentially the same as a single and a 180-degree twin better but not as good as a four-cylinder. A 90 degree V twin should be somewhere between the single and the 180-degree twin - towards the single end of the spectrum because of the unequal firing order. So for maximum bhp efficiency on a V twin, you need the biggest unrestricted breather pipe venting the crankcase to the atmosphere. You need to stop crud entering the crankcase so the outlet should have some sort of one-way filter and ideally you want to return the oil in suspension with the crankcase pressure exhaust air to be returned to the crankcase. Control of emissions would be a "Californian" (and manufacturer) concern to most legislators but to petrol heads, let's just maximise horsepower. Any oil mist expelled would obviously need to be kept away from the black rubber rings that keep us on two wheels. If the piston rings are a good fit in the bore and the valve seals are good it sees to be a good plan to de-restrict the breather of reed valves and let the engine breathe rather than wheeze through a 20mm bore pipe/read valve and potentially choke on its own emissions.