All that glitters is not gold... - Page 2

jerry · 13-02-2017, 07:23 PM

worrying thing is when the rockers go really bad steel starts coming off too????

Dukedesmo · 13-02-2017, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry

worrying thing is when the rockers go really bad steel starts coming off too????

Good point, although I've not seen any chrome previously (maybe wasn't looking hard enough?) but I suppose it's possible it could have done the chrome and some steel all in a season with the steel being the obvious due to the magnet?

I've done a provisional check of the valve clearances and all are within tolerance, although I may alter a few to get them better than just 'in tolerance'. Either way I'll have a good look at the rocker faces whilst in there just in case.

jerry · 13-02-2017, 08:40 PM

intriguing as MR spock would say

utopia · 14-02-2017, 08:20 AM

I have no suggestions, just sympathy.
I guess its kinda nice to have not found anything seriously amiss so far, but the uncertainty remains to haunt your thoughts, eh ?

Mr Gazza · 14-02-2017, 05:06 PM

I looked into getting some old oil analysed on a poorly engine I briefly owned.

The analysis is fairly pricey depending on what sort of tests that you need, but they can tell all sorts of things from the old oil. Such as identifying trace elements of metals that could indicate wear on specific components.

You have a little more than a "trace element" there unfortunately, but there are two ways you could take this idea further.
The first would be to have your old oil tested to see what metals are present in unusual levels, which might give some clues.
The other would be to see if anyone could identify the shrapnel you have extracted, and see if the chemical make up of it could be matched to anything specific.

Of course, assuming that you could get the DNA of the shrapnel, you would then have to find out what various bits were made of in order to establish where it came from.

I know that the oil analysis already exists over the counter, maybe the same vendors can offer a metal dissection service too?

slob · 14-02-2017, 06:01 PM

I'm with those who suggest sprag clutch, it'll start to shed metal before you notice hard starting.

Dukedesmo · 14-02-2017, 08:42 PM

Not wanting to strip down any further, I've reassembled it today - at least I know what it's not, the rockers are fine BTW.

Maybe it's just gearchange debris? but seems odd I'd not seen it before. If it continues I'll have to delve deeper but that means at least the cylinders off or engine out to split the cases but I'm not convinced there's anything inside that would make magnetic shrapnel without there being more telltale.

I'll keep it under a watchful eye, I mean what's the worse that could happen?

Now just need to finish off what I started; valve clearances, belt tension, oil change, clean & 'shuffle' clutch plates and setup/balance the carbs.

Dukedesmo · 14-02-2017, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slob

I'm with those who suggest sprag clutch, it'll start to shed metal before you notice hard starting.

I've had the sprag out today, examined as well as I can and it works perfectly and looks just fine.

And, most importantly no sign of any bits on or around it...

Dukedesmo · 24-02-2018, 12:56 PM

Returning to this: Was changing the oil today, not sure what I was expecting to find (secretly hoping said problem has disappeared) but was greeted with this;

Bike has been running fine, no unusual noises or behaviour, done around 2000 miles since last year - that's an awful lot of debris for just 2000 miles, all magnetic so investigation starts again...

I'll start by inspecting the sprag clutch, but it looked fine last time, as did everything else
- I had a camera inside the engine and everything (that was visible) appeared OK and I've not had a sprag type problems.

The only thing of slight concern was/is that the clutch shaft has a little 'wobble' in it. By wobble I mean that if I get hold of it I can move it a little up/down/side-to-side, it's not a huge amount and probably no worse now than last year but it does move significantly more than my 916 clutch which has almost no movement and has done around 50,000 miles, compared to this Monster @ 11,500 miles...

Jez900ie · 24-02-2018, 01:13 PM

From the pics of last year compared to this year whatever it is thats breaking down is getting worse. I am "a rider not a fixer" so no suggestions I'm afraid. Fingers crossed you find the problem soon.

TimDW · 25-02-2018, 03:11 PM

Hi dukedesmo.

I read throught this topic. I already thought that there was no problem in the sides. When the clutch sprag goes bad there are no big pieces on the magnet. Just some slag in the oil and bad starting.

In my advise, I'd have a closer look at your gears and the gear drum. I've had and engine where the drum cut out large pieces in the carter.

If you have those pieces on the magnet, get your crankshaft and everything out of the carters and check all the bearings.
I've had many engines were the pieces destroyed bearings, even if they looked fine at first side, get your finger in them and roll the bearings. I know it sucks but go all the way once you are there.
Hope everything comes well for you, keep us posted...

utopia · 25-02-2018, 05:29 PM

Presumably those things that look like shards on the drain plug are actually magnetic growths of metal finings that have formed themselves into shard-like structures ?

Have you done a compression test recently ?
Are you tempted to cut the oil filter open and see what it contains ?

Dukedesmo · 25-02-2018, 05:43 PM

Thanks for the advice.

I don't think there's anything in the sides either, in fact I took the sprag out yesterday and can see nothing wrong with it - it works fine and last year I had both sides off and could find nothing. I even had an endoscope camera in and could see nothing and the top ends (valves, cams etc.) all looked good.

I didn't want to split the engine at the time so put it back and it worked fine all year, but it can't go on shedding that much metal before something gives so I'm going to have to go for it this time or face a potential disaster when something lets go.

As for the shards on the plug, yes they're small filings that have become like stalagmites, held together with magnetism and oil.

Last compression test was last year and there was plenty (228psi vertical & 215psi horizontal), I've not done one this time but may do before pulling it apart although I'll have to refit some parts first.

I will dissect the filter, last years was full of filings so I'm expecting the same, or likely worse this time.

Mr Gazza · 25-02-2018, 07:19 PM

Bloody unlucky, that DD!
You can't not pull it down now, but my guess would be that a bad bearing behind the clutch is causing the primary gears to mash up. If it is that, then at least it could be fixed without splitting the cases or taking the engine out... Possibly?

Dukedesmo · 25-02-2018, 08:12 PM

Could be clutch shaft bearing but that's inside the case so it'll have to come apart. I'm wondering if it's a shim on one of the shafts being ground away?

13-02-2017, 07:23 PM	#16
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,811	worrying thing is when the rockers go really bad steel starts coming off too???? __________________ MONSTERMAN

13-02-2017, 08:40 PM	#18
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,811	intriguing as MR spock would say __________________ MONSTERMAN

14-02-2017, 05:06 PM	#20
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,801	I looked into getting some old oil analysed on a poorly engine I briefly owned. The analysis is fairly pricey depending on what sort of tests that you need, but they can tell all sorts of things from the old oil. Such as identifying trace elements of metals that could indicate wear on specific components. You have a little more than a "trace element" there unfortunately, but there are two ways you could take this idea further. The first would be to have your old oil tested to see what metals are present in unusual levels, which might give some clues. The other would be to see if anyone could identify the shrapnel you have extracted, and see if the chemical make up of it could be matched to anything specific. Of course, assuming that you could get the DNA of the shrapnel, you would then have to find out what various bits were made of in order to establish where it came from. I know that the oil analysis already exists over the counter, maybe the same vendors can offer a metal dissection service too? __________________

14-02-2017, 08:42 PM	#22
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,842	Not wanting to strip down any further, I've reassembled it today - at least I know what it's not, the rockers are fine BTW. Maybe it's just gearchange debris? but seems odd I'd not seen it before. If it continues I'll have to delve deeper but that means at least the cylinders off or engine out to split the cases but I'm not convinced there's anything inside that would make magnetic shrapnel without there being more telltale. I'll keep it under a watchful eye, I mean what's the worse that could happen? Now just need to finish off what I started; valve clearances, belt tension, oil change, clean & 'shuffle' clutch plates and setup/balance the carbs. __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

24-02-2018, 12:56 PM	#24
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,842	Return of the glitter... Returning to this: Was changing the oil today, not sure what I was expecting to find (secretly hoping said problem has disappeared) but was greeted with this; Bike has been running fine, no unusual noises or behaviour, done around 2000 miles since last year - that's an awful lot of debris for just 2000 miles, all magnetic so investigation starts again... I'll start by inspecting the sprag clutch, but it looked fine last time, as did everything else - I had a camera inside the engine and everything (that was visible) appeared OK and I've not had a sprag type problems. The only thing of slight concern was/is that the clutch shaft has a little 'wobble' in it. By wobble I mean that if I get hold of it I can move it a little up/down/side-to-side, it's not a huge amount and probably no worse now than last year but it does move significantly more than my 916 clutch which has almost no movement and has done around 50,000 miles, compared to this Monster @ 11,500 miles... __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

14-02-2017, 08:20 AM	#19
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	I have no suggestions, just sympathy. I guess its kinda nice to have not found anything seriously amiss so far, but the uncertainty remains to haunt your thoughts, eh ?

14-02-2017, 06:01 PM	#21
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,708	I'm with those who suggest sprag clutch, it'll start to shed metal before you notice hard starting.

24-02-2018, 01:13 PM	#25
Jez900ie Pleasantly surprised! Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Stoke on Trent Bike: M900ie Posts: 780	From the pics of last year compared to this year whatever it is thats breaking down is getting worse. I am "a rider not a fixer" so no suggestions I'm afraid. Fingers crossed you find the problem soon. __________________ Monsters don't hide under the bed, they sleep inside the shed

25-02-2018, 03:11 PM	#26
TimDW Registered User Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Drongen Bike: S2r 1000 Posts: 49	Hi dukedesmo. I read throught this topic. I already thought that there was no problem in the sides. When the clutch sprag goes bad there are no big pieces on the magnet. Just some slag in the oil and bad starting. In my advise, I'd have a closer look at your gears and the gear drum. I've had and engine where the drum cut out large pieces in the carter. If you have those pieces on the magnet, get your crankshaft and everything out of the carters and check all the bearings. I've had many engines were the pieces destroyed bearings, even if they looked fine at first side, get your finger in them and roll the bearings. I know it sucks but go all the way once you are there. Hope everything comes well for you, keep us posted...

25-02-2018, 05:29 PM	#27
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Presumably those things that look like shards on the drain plug are actually magnetic growths of metal finings that have formed themselves into shard-like structures ? Have you done a compression test recently ? Are you tempted to cut the oil filter open and see what it contains ?

25-02-2018, 05:43 PM	#28
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,842	Thanks for the advice. I don't think there's anything in the sides either, in fact I took the sprag out yesterday and can see nothing wrong with it - it works fine and last year I had both sides off and could find nothing. I even had an endoscope camera in and could see nothing and the top ends (valves, cams etc.) all looked good. I didn't want to split the engine at the time so put it back and it worked fine all year, but it can't go on shedding that much metal before something gives so I'm going to have to go for it this time or face a potential disaster when something lets go. As for the shards on the plug, yes they're small filings that have become like stalagmites, held together with magnetism and oil. Last compression test was last year and there was plenty (228psi vertical & 215psi horizontal), I've not done one this time but may do before pulling it apart although I'll have to refit some parts first. I will dissect the filter, last years was full of filings so I'm expecting the same, or likely worse this time. __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

25-02-2018, 07:19 PM	#29
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,801	Bloody unlucky, that DD! You can't not pull it down now, but my guess would be that a bad bearing behind the clutch is causing the primary gears to mash up. If it is that, then at least it could be fixed without splitting the cases or taking the engine out... Possibly? __________________

25-02-2018, 08:12 PM	#30
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,842	Could be clutch shaft bearing but that's inside the case so it'll have to come apart. I'm wondering if it's a shim on one of the shafts being ground away? __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.