Valve Shims

25-08-2010, 04:08 PM

best way to measure the closing shim?

jerry · 25-08-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analogue_rogue

best way to measure the closing shim?

Tou need the adaptor and a digital micrometer

get adaptor from EMSDUC and the micrometer is about £20 in machinemart

25-08-2010, 05:26 PM

whats the adapter?
have you got a picture?

slob · 25-08-2010, 06:30 PM

http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog....el&artikel=552

utopia · 26-08-2010, 04:42 AM

If you're familiar with the use of a micrometer it is possible to measure them without the adaptor, but it requires a good engineering "feel" or else its easy to get it wrong. The problem is that you need to measure from the broad flat face that the closing rocker bears on, to the shoulder in the bore (that holds the wire collets). BUT I believe this shoulder is NOT FLAT, but radiused to match the cross section of the wire collets. This makes it easy to get a high reading. The true reading is between the innermost corners of the face and the shoulder, where they meet with the bore of the shim. In practice this boils down to being the smallest reading you can get before the anvils of the micrometer slip off into the bore. .....Anyway, the adaptor eliminates this problem ...it fits against the radiused shoulder sort of like a spacer, and you measure across both, then subtract the length of the spacer. Brancato Engineering OX44 7RW, 01865 891203 make one (they call it a button) £23.50 (see Classic Bike apr '08). I've not tried one. Any such device has to be trusted to be accurate, until you've bought a shim of known thickness to check it against, that is. Some shims have thickness marked on them anyway. And a word of caution.... I've seen respected Ducati mechanics measure shims wrongly using Ducati workshop tools. Set the closers even slightly too tight and it all goes crunch, so with belts off and opening rocker disengaged, check that the cam rotates by hand with no tight spot. AND FINALLY, the wire collets bed in to something like the difference between one shim size and the next, so fitting new ones can restore valve clearances on their own (for a while)....or just confuse the issue. They also bed in one way, so if you put the old ones back in upside down (cos they fit either way) they act like new ones and change the clearances by maybe one shim size. And you need a lens to spot the wear marks, and then its not easy. My advice would be ..measure up, take notes, leave collets in situ, work it all out but don't change anything unless it needs at least two shim sizes, and maybe then just go one size with new collets. Or even try just new collets first....they only cost pence but shims are pricier. Check the videos...the guy from california..excellent. And do use the trick method of measuring the closing clearances via the opening shims...much easier, more accurate and doesn't chew your feeler gauges. Btw, those red kites round your way are stunning, aren't they?

26-08-2010, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utopia

If you're familiar with the use of a micrometer it is possible to measure them without the adaptor, but it requires a good engineering "feel" or else its easy to get it wrong. The problem is that you need to measure from the broad flat face that the closing rocker bears on, to the shoulder in the bore (that holds the wire collets). BUT I believe this shoulder is NOT FLAT, but radiused to match the cross section of the wire collets. This makes it easy to get a high reading. The true reading is between the innermost corners of the face and the shoulder, where they meet with the bore of the shim. In practice this boils down to being the smallest reading you can get before the anvils of the micrometer slip off into the bore. .....Anyway, the adaptor eliminates this problem ...it fits against the radiused shoulder sort of like a spacer, and you measure across both, then subtract the length of the spacer. Brancato Engineering OX44 7RW, 01865 891203 make one (they call it a button) £23.50 (see Classic Bike apr '08). I've not tried one. Any such device has to be trusted to be accurate, until you've bought a shim of known thickness to check it against, that is. Some shims have thickness marked on them anyway. And a word of caution.... I've seen respected Ducati mechanics measure shims wrongly using Ducati workshop tools. Set the closers even slightly too tight and it all goes crunch, so with belts off and opening rocker disengaged, check that the cam rotates by hand with no tight spot. AND FINALLY, the wire collets bed in to something like the difference between one shim size and the next, so fitting new ones can restore valve clearances on their own (for a while)....or just confuse the issue. They also bed in one way, so if you put the old ones back in upside down (cos they fit either way) they act like new ones and change the clearances by maybe one shim size. And you need a lens to spot the wear marks, and then its not easy. My advice would be ..measure up, take notes, leave collets in situ, work it all out but don't change anything unless it needs at least two shim sizes, and maybe then just go one size with new collets. Or even try just new collets first....they only cost pence but shims are pricier. Check the videos...the guy from california..excellent. And do use the trick method of measuring the closing clearances via the opening shims...much easier, more accurate and doesn't chew your feeler gauges. Btw, those red kites round your way are stunning, aren't they?

Excellent description. Worthy of a sticky IMO.

slob · 26-08-2010, 06:48 AM

Stuck, here are the links to the YouTube videos and EMS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIj3nSJGPZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WQY1MRlmH4

http://www.emsduc.com/products.html

26-08-2010, 09:31 AM

The red ktes are where im from but im now up in the midlands near wolverhampton... but i cant change my location!

utopia · 27-08-2010, 01:29 PM

So if you're in wolverhampton, you're not far away from me in Leicester. I'd be happy to measure your shims for you if you can get them here. I've got a spare micrometer that you could borrow too, although its an imperial (inches) one, so you'd have to convert to mm.

27-08-2010, 05:29 PM

i wont be doing the tappets till the winter season hits as i use the bike daily at the minute. but my plan is to remove engine and strip for painting then on reassembly put new shims in to stop the ticking from the valves... if you fancy a visit with tools closer to the time i have tea and coffee and biscuits... lol

utopia · 27-08-2010, 11:22 PM

Let me know when you're doing it. I have family in shrops, so could maybe call in en route. Where exactly are you?

28-08-2010, 12:01 PM

Raf Cosford......

utopia · 28-08-2010, 02:30 PM

Oh thats easy then. I'm often in Newport, or Muxton.

29-08-2010, 07:39 AM

where are they? i dont know the area very well!

utopia · 03-09-2010, 05:46 AM

sorry for late reply. .....Newport is just a few miles north of you, on the A41, t'other side of the A5. And Muxton is sort of similar, but smaller. I lived around there for 20 years. Now back in my hometown of leicester, but have an ex, and 4 kids over there, so I'm often about. Should be no prob to arrange a meetup, and I can def lend you a mic if you like. I've got 3. Happy to pass on what I've learn't from doing mine. And would be nice to meet a stranger, as t'were. I seem to remember a cafe near the base...something about spiders...? I know where that is.. Just off the A41. Let me know when you're doing it and we can maybe sort something.

25-08-2010, 04:08 PM	#1
analogue_rogue Guest Posts: n/a	Valve Shims best way to measure the closing shim?

25-08-2010, 05:26 PM	#3
analogue_rogue Guest Posts: n/a	whats the adapter? have you got a picture?

25-08-2010, 06:30 PM	#4
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,737	http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog....el&artikel=552

26-08-2010, 04:42 AM	#5
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	If you're familiar with the use of a micrometer it is possible to measure them without the adaptor, but it requires a good engineering "feel" or else its easy to get it wrong. The problem is that you need to measure from the broad flat face that the closing rocker bears on, to the shoulder in the bore (that holds the wire collets). BUT I believe this shoulder is NOT FLAT, but radiused to match the cross section of the wire collets. This makes it easy to get a high reading. The true reading is between the innermost corners of the face and the shoulder, where they meet with the bore of the shim. In practice this boils down to being the smallest reading you can get before the anvils of the micrometer slip off into the bore. .....Anyway, the adaptor eliminates this problem ...it fits against the radiused shoulder sort of like a spacer, and you measure across both, then subtract the length of the spacer. Brancato Engineering OX44 7RW, 01865 891203 make one (they call it a button) £23.50 (see Classic Bike apr '08). I've not tried one. Any such device has to be trusted to be accurate, until you've bought a shim of known thickness to check it against, that is. Some shims have thickness marked on them anyway. And a word of caution.... I've seen respected Ducati mechanics measure shims wrongly using Ducati workshop tools. Set the closers even slightly too tight and it all goes crunch, so with belts off and opening rocker disengaged, check that the cam rotates by hand with no tight spot. AND FINALLY, the wire collets bed in to something like the difference between one shim size and the next, so fitting new ones can restore valve clearances on their own (for a while)....or just confuse the issue. They also bed in one way, so if you put the old ones back in upside down (cos they fit either way) they act like new ones and change the clearances by maybe one shim size. And you need a lens to spot the wear marks, and then its not easy. My advice would be ..measure up, take notes, leave collets in situ, work it all out but don't change anything unless it needs at least two shim sizes, and maybe then just go one size with new collets. Or even try just new collets first....they only cost pence but shims are pricier. Check the videos...the guy from california..excellent. And do use the trick method of measuring the closing clearances via the opening shims...much easier, more accurate and doesn't chew your feeler gauges. Btw, those red kites round your way are stunning, aren't they?

26-08-2010, 06:48 AM	#7
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,737	Stuck, here are the links to the YouTube videos and EMS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIj3nSJGPZw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WQY1MRlmH4 http://www.emsduc.com/products.html

26-08-2010, 09:31 AM	#8
analogue_rogue Guest Posts: n/a	The red ktes are where im from but im now up in the midlands near wolverhampton... but i cant change my location!

27-08-2010, 01:29 PM	#9
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	So if you're in wolverhampton, you're not far away from me in Leicester. I'd be happy to measure your shims for you if you can get them here. I've got a spare micrometer that you could borrow too, although its an imperial (inches) one, so you'd have to convert to mm.

27-08-2010, 05:29 PM	#10
analogue_rogue Guest Posts: n/a	i wont be doing the tappets till the winter season hits as i use the bike daily at the minute. but my plan is to remove engine and strip for painting then on reassembly put new shims in to stop the ticking from the valves... if you fancy a visit with tools closer to the time i have tea and coffee and biscuits... lol

27-08-2010, 11:22 PM	#11
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	Let me know when you're doing it. I have family in shrops, so could maybe call in en route. Where exactly are you?

28-08-2010, 12:01 PM	#12
analogue_rogue Guest Posts: n/a	Raf Cosford......

28-08-2010, 02:30 PM	#13
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	Oh thats easy then. I'm often in Newport, or Muxton.

29-08-2010, 07:39 AM	#14
analogue_rogue Guest Posts: n/a	where are they? i dont know the area very well!

03-09-2010, 05:46 AM	#15
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	sorry for late reply. .....Newport is just a few miles north of you, on the A41, t'other side of the A5. And Muxton is sort of similar, but smaller. I lived around there for 20 years. Now back in my hometown of leicester, but have an ex, and 4 kids over there, so I'm often about. Should be no prob to arrange a meetup, and I can def lend you a mic if you like. I've got 3. Happy to pass on what I've learn't from doing mine. And would be nice to meet a stranger, as t'were. I seem to remember a cafe near the base...something about spiders...? I know where that is.. Just off the A41. Let me know when you're doing it and we can maybe sort something.