Help 1996 M600 non starter

20-05-2021, 06:30 PM

So the strangest thing.
I have spent the last couple of years getting my bike back on the road after being mothballed for almost sixteen years. All threw this time I have fired it up with no issues.
Cut to the day of the MOT, wheeled it out onto the street, would not start and has not since (7 days ish)
Turns over ok went threw all the idiots list tracked down dodgy coil, swapped that out but still no joy.Checked the fuel and it seems to be getting some but unsure of the flow rate of these old vacuum style pumps and I'll get the odd backfire but that's it.
I am at a loss
Could be timing?

Help

Darkness · 20-05-2021, 07:06 PM

How old is the petrol? Modern fuel seems to lose its volatiles within a year. I tipped some old petrol out of a chainsaw at the weekend and couldn’t even light it with a match, a firelighter and a long stick!

Oh, and check the battery terminals and connections are clean.

slob · 20-05-2021, 07:07 PM

Try another pair of sparkplugs

Dennis menace · 20-05-2021, 07:39 PM

When I had this problem I by-passed the tank and used a small tank of fuel suspended above the bike to gravity feed new fuel to the carbs. That worked and told me it was a fuel delivery issue. I serviced the pump with a kit (sold for a skidoo!) and also replaced the rubber pipe to the vac outlet of the carb manifold as that was perished. To get new fuel into the carbs I drained the old fuel using the drain screws on the bottom end of each carb before refilling using the small tank mentioned above. I actually took the tank off my lawnmower but you can buy a small device on ebay for a few pounds. Not sure where you can get the fuel pump service kit from nowadays but it is quite a common pump for snowmobiles, skidoos etc. Got mine off ebay back in the day. I know some owners have replaced the vac fuel pump with an electric one from I think Yamaha.
Dennis

Mr Gazza · 20-05-2021, 08:50 PM

I've heard others mention that Allens Performance stock the re-furb kits for the vacuum pumps. https://www.allensperformance.co.uk/.
Their virus restriction pop up notice is unnecessarily racist though!

Some owners resign to cranking the motor until enough fuel gets to the carbs, but the battery needs to be in good nick to cope with that. Taking the plugs out will give it an easier time and you will probably smell the fuel when it comes out of the plug 'oles.
Don't keep cranking until the battery fades, and probably a good idea to re-charge it after that exercise.

Dennis menace · 21-05-2021, 04:28 PM

Wow! That is some notice. I can only imagine someone thought it was funny, at least I hope that was the intention.
Last I heard Allen's were out of stock of the pump refurb kit but that was a while ago. The frustrating thing is you can get a refurb kit for a few dollars from the USA but postage is more expensive than the kit!
On another forum someone got a refurb kit from Mikuni Germany by 'phoning them, no mention of cost though.
Dennis

29-06-2021, 07:29 AM

So, I’ve now swapped out the vacuum fuel pump for an electric, so supply is no issue but still no joy.
Another thing to consider is that I have deleted the air filter box and replaced with trumpets and yet not re-jetted, but it has started fine up to now with this set-up.
Can’t help thinking that it’s fuel related ether to much or not enough fuel or air.

slob · 29-06-2021, 07:57 AM

Have you drained the tank and carbs an put fresh fuel in? as suggested by Darkness.
It might run rough with open carbs but it should run if it ran before.
What’s changed? the fuel got older, the timing is unlikely to have adjusted itself. Take the plugs out, hold them against the engine (for an earth) and see if you get a good spark when you turn it over.

29-06-2021, 08:22 AM

All fresh fuel via a jerry can, have a spark from each lead that seems ok. if the voltage was to drop bellow 12v would this stop it from starting ??

slob · 29-06-2021, 09:26 AM

potentially yes. less than 12v will mean the starter is spinning slowly, which won’t help matters. the plugs will spark at 20kv+ but in proportion to the supplied 12v to the coils.
it should be a really good ‘fat’ spark with the plugs out, otherwise you’ll get very little with cylinder compression.

29-06-2021, 05:07 PM

Going to pick up some new plugs tomorrow, may go for Iridium to see if it helps !

Luddite · 29-06-2021, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StewartC

Going to pick up some new plugs tomorrow, may go for Iridium to see if it helps !

If you do go for iridium, make sure you don't set them to the standard copper-core gap - the iridium plugs need a larger gap of about 1.0mm. They should come supplied with a gap of 1.0mm but always check before fitting.

More information here:

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=58260

If you do adjust the gap, only ever touch the earth electrode as the centre electrode is very thin and can easily be damaged if you apply any pressure to it.

350TSS · 30-06-2021, 09:22 AM

In other places/forums iridium plugs are not recommended for 600/750/900 Monster/SS, not sure why, seem to remember something about the standard Ducati exciter boxes/coils not being up to the job

02-07-2021, 07:51 AM

Did check the gap and set it at 0.9 stuck them in and it fired up first push of the button. So either the standard plugs i had in may be duff or fouled up !

02-07-2021, 08:11 AM

Not come across that myself. Having put them in and the bike starting and running fine I'll keep an eye on them. Just need to re-jet now!

20-05-2021, 06:30 PM	#1
StewartC Guest Posts: n/a	Help 1996 M600 non starter So the strangest thing. I have spent the last couple of years getting my bike back on the road after being mothballed for almost sixteen years. All threw this time I have fired it up with no issues. Cut to the day of the MOT, wheeled it out onto the street, would not start and has not since (7 days ish) Turns over ok went threw all the idiots list tracked down dodgy coil, swapped that out but still no joy.Checked the fuel and it seems to be getting some but unsure of the flow rate of these old vacuum style pumps and I'll get the odd backfire but that's it. I am at a loss Could be timing? Help

20-05-2021, 07:06 PM	#2
Darkness . Join Date: May 2007 Location: Stockbridge Bike: M900 Posts: 1,984	How old is the petrol? Modern fuel seems to lose its volatiles within a year. I tipped some old petrol out of a chainsaw at the weekend and couldn’t even light it with a match, a firelighter and a long stick! Oh, and check the battery terminals and connections are clean. __________________ Original and Best since 1993

20-05-2021, 08:50 PM	#5
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,983	I've heard others mention that Allens Performance stock the re-furb kits for the vacuum pumps. https://www.allensperformance.co.uk/. Their virus restriction pop up notice is unnecessarily racist though! Some owners resign to cranking the motor until enough fuel gets to the carbs, but the battery needs to be in good nick to cope with that. Taking the plugs out will give it an easier time and you will probably smell the fuel when it comes out of the plug 'oles. Don't keep cranking until the battery fades, and probably a good idea to re-charge it after that exercise. __________________

20-05-2021, 07:07 PM	#3
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,736	Try another pair of sparkplugs

20-05-2021, 07:39 PM	#4
Dennis menace Registered User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Farnsfield Bike: Other Ducati Posts: 300	When I had this problem I by-passed the tank and used a small tank of fuel suspended above the bike to gravity feed new fuel to the carbs. That worked and told me it was a fuel delivery issue. I serviced the pump with a kit (sold for a skidoo!) and also replaced the rubber pipe to the vac outlet of the carb manifold as that was perished. To get new fuel into the carbs I drained the old fuel using the drain screws on the bottom end of each carb before refilling using the small tank mentioned above. I actually took the tank off my lawnmower but you can buy a small device on ebay for a few pounds. Not sure where you can get the fuel pump service kit from nowadays but it is quite a common pump for snowmobiles, skidoos etc. Got mine off ebay back in the day. I know some owners have replaced the vac fuel pump with an electric one from I think Yamaha. Dennis

21-05-2021, 04:28 PM	#6
Dennis menace Registered User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Farnsfield Bike: Other Ducati Posts: 300	Wow! That is some notice. I can only imagine someone thought it was funny, at least I hope that was the intention. Last I heard Allen's were out of stock of the pump refurb kit but that was a while ago. The frustrating thing is you can get a refurb kit for a few dollars from the USA but postage is more expensive than the kit! On another forum someone got a refurb kit from Mikuni Germany by 'phoning them, no mention of cost though. Dennis

29-06-2021, 07:29 AM	#7
StewartC Guest Posts: n/a	So, I’ve now swapped out the vacuum fuel pump for an electric, so supply is no issue but still no joy. Another thing to consider is that I have deleted the air filter box and replaced with trumpets and yet not re-jetted, but it has started fine up to now with this set-up. Can’t help thinking that it’s fuel related ether to much or not enough fuel or air.

29-06-2021, 07:57 AM	#8
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,736	Have you drained the tank and carbs an put fresh fuel in? as suggested by Darkness. It might run rough with open carbs but it should run if it ran before. What’s changed? the fuel got older, the timing is unlikely to have adjusted itself. Take the plugs out, hold them against the engine (for an earth) and see if you get a good spark when you turn it over.

29-06-2021, 08:22 AM	#9
StewartC Guest Posts: n/a	All fresh fuel via a jerry can, have a spark from each lead that seems ok. if the voltage was to drop bellow 12v would this stop it from starting ??

29-06-2021, 09:26 AM	#10
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,736	potentially yes. less than 12v will mean the starter is spinning slowly, which won’t help matters. the plugs will spark at 20kv+ but in proportion to the supplied 12v to the coils. it should be a really good ‘fat’ spark with the plugs out, otherwise you’ll get very little with cylinder compression.

29-06-2021, 05:07 PM	#11
StewartC Guest Posts: n/a	Going to pick up some new plugs tomorrow, may go for Iridium to see if it helps !

30-06-2021, 09:22 AM	#13
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	In other places/forums iridium plugs are not recommended for 600/750/900 Monster/SS, not sure why, seem to remember something about the standard Ducati exciter boxes/coils not being up to the job

02-07-2021, 07:51 AM	#14
StewartC Guest Posts: n/a	Did check the gap and set it at 0.9 stuck them in and it fired up first push of the button. So either the standard plugs i had in may be duff or fouled up !

02-07-2021, 08:11 AM	#15
StewartC Guest Posts: n/a	Not come across that myself. Having put them in and the bike starting and running fine I'll keep an eye on them. Just need to re-jet now!