Slow Monster rebuild - Page 72

350TSS · 09-01-2020, 04:13 PM

Started today by making the gudgeon pin circlip assist tool. I used 20 mm aluminium bar machined down to 11.0mm to go into the pin for 50mm, then machined to 15mm for 25mm. The circlip guide is an 8mm SS socket grub screw. I made the handle long enough to be able to use it when the engine is in the frame and both cases, clutch and alternator are still attached. A piece of 6mm mild steel forms the Tee handle with the ends heated and flattened to make it captive.

350TSS · 09-01-2020, 04:20 PM

I haven't used the above tool yet as I am still waiting for parts and want to put the piston back when I have all the bits.
To assist with piston replacement I bought one of these sets, could probably have used a large jubilee clip and a strip of 1mm polypropylene, but I have got my 750SS and a 3.5 Moto Morini to do next so the set will not be wasted. The gripper pliers have a clever ratchet arrangement so both hands can be manipulating the barrel.

350TSS · 09-01-2020, 04:55 PM

The next job I tackled was preparing the clutch case ready to be put back on. I am still awaiting the rubber seals that sit between the oil pump and the crankcase and once these arrive the case can be buttoned up.

I needed to replace the oil level window which suffered a bit duing the powder coating. I left it in as I knew I was going to replace it. A couple of taps with a nylon faced mallet and it came out relatively easily, although the housing inside the clutch case needed a fair bit of cleaning.

The other job was to replace the crankshaft oil seal which takes the oil from the pressure switch and ensures it is is directed through the RH crankshaft to the big ends. The rubber (nitrile) had gone completely hard and it disintegrated when I touched it.

wallpaper legend of the seeker

Getting the metal backing of the seal out of the recess it fits into was a right palaver and took a good couple of hours. I had to be careful attacking it as there is a bronze crankshaft support bush right behind the seal in the clutch case. I tried my seal removal tool but could not get any purchase between the seal and the bronze bush. Electrical screwdrivers used as chisels were driven between the aluminium casting and the metal backing to the seal. I was really conscious that if the housing leaked then big end oil pressure would be reduced. I then tried my smallest chisel which achieved nothing. Finally, I resorted to a rotary file in a dremel to wear through the outer skin, without distressing the cast housing. Eventually, my seal removal tool was tried again and out it came, the housing suffered only very slightly, a light dressing with a scothbrite pad and a smear of three bond on the outside of the new seal should ensure that the seal performs as intended.

Finally a picture of my cylinder heads for no other reason than I think they look nice.

utopia · 09-01-2020, 06:30 PM

Personally, although it might be ok as it is, I think I'd be inclined to remove the thread from the protruding section of the grub screw.
Should be easy enough to do, either in a drilled and tapped plug in the lathe or just with a file off an allen key held in the vice, perhaps.

Luddite · 09-01-2020, 06:59 PM

Nice work fabricating the circlip tool so quickly, Richard. Look forward to hearing how it performs.

And, yes, your cylinder heads do look good - they'd make a nice pair of bookends to keep all my Motocourse annuals upright!

350TSS · 10-01-2020, 05:40 AM

Utopia: the extent of protrusion of the grub screw might affect whether or not the tool actually works so is subject to a bit of trial and error (read in and out adjustment). I seriously considered trying to make the protrusion revolve so the circlip will glide into place rather than be forced into place, but that was just too difficult to do and the protrusion height can only be about 1mm to 1.5mm anyway and the base is curved. In the end, I settled on a SS grub screw as it is probably harder than the spring steel of the circlip and even thought that the existence of the thread might assist retention of the circlip in front of the protrusion, provided I screw the circlip in the right way.
Luddite : Thanks - I hope the heads will be more mobile than book ends in the reasonably forseeable future

350TSS · 10-01-2020, 05:26 PM

Whilst I am waiting bits I cannot get on with the big stuff so it was messingabout with bits and bobs. I took the horizontal piston off and decoked the crown and the ring lands.
Whilst both pistons are off I took the opportunity to clean the crankcase barrel mating surfaces.
The old gasket goo here was like an orange baked on varnish and quite difficult to remove, particularly around the studs. I would quite like not to use any gasket goo on the cylinder base when I reassemble - what have others used when reassembling the barrels to the crankcase?

The alternator case gasket face on the crankcase was covered in that light grey silicone gasket cement whch I got of wth a combination of a blunt screwdriver, WD40 and a 25mm square cut from a scotchbrite pad.

I also ran a 6mm plug tap down all the tapped holes for the alternator and clutch casings as all the cap screws that came out were heavily corroded (4 years of commuting in all weathers and cleaned once a year whether it needed it or not).

I also fitted a new oil sight glass to the clutch case and installed new release bearing to the clutch centre plate.

So progress but not what you would call satisfying progress.

Dukedesmo · 10-01-2020, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 350TSS

what have others used when reassembling the barrels to the crankcase?

Threebond - works great and easy to remove if required. Use it in place of most gaskets, including side covers and even crankcase halves.

350TSS · 11-01-2020, 10:37 PM

Thanks Dukedesmo

350TSS · 13-01-2020, 05:50 PM

Recieved my blind bearing puller set late this afternoon, tomorrow is ferrying No 1 son back to university and hopefully my Moto Rapido order arrives Wednesday so I can then get the engine put together.

miki vocaloid
Worryingly, I cannot put my hands on the flywheel or the sprag clutch and associated big gear or the clutch centre and nut, I have just not come across them when rummaging for other parts recently. They are undoubtedly safely stashed somewhere, I just do not know exactly where right now.

350TSS · 14-01-2020, 04:37 PM

Managed to get back from delivering my son to uni in time to try out my blind bearing puller - what a brilliant bit of kit, both cam bearings were out inside 20 minutes with no dramas whatsoever.

huey freeman wallpaper

A few problems then showed their face:
1. Ducati do not sell the bearings separately only with the caps at c £18 each.
2. My existing bearing caps have been powder coated and I do not want to lose the look.
3 The old bearings have no discernable electrically etched markings on them.
4 Simply Bearings can supply the same size bearings ID 15mm x 35mm OD x 11mm width but only in C3 designation ( This is probably OK as C3 has a looser tolerance on the track and is for use in environments of heat and high revolutions - being at the top of the cylinder head means that C3 is almost certainly the right sort of bearing to use).
5 The SB offer (c£9 the pair) is for a nitrile sealed bearing both sides of the track, the original bearings have a seal only on the camshaft side presumably to keep an oil bath in the cap to lubricate the bearing.
6 The machining within the cap to hold the bearing is 10.25mm deep, the bearing is 11mm deep, the old bearings were only in about 6mm, although this might have had something to do with the bearings being left in during the powder coating process. So how far do I push the new bearings in?

After a bit of pondering, I bought the SB offering and I will remove the extra oil seal on the blind side of the bearing before putting them back and I will press them into their machined space until the outer track "bottoms"
That leaves me with one more issue - how to press the new bearings in without damaging the quite fragile powder coating on the outside of the cap?????

Dukedesmo · 15-01-2020, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 350TSS

I bought the SB offering and I will remove the extra oil seal on the blind side of the bearing before putting them back and I will press them into their machined space until the outer track "bottoms"
That leaves me with one more issue - how to press the new bearings in without damaging the quite fragile powder coating on the outside of the cap?????

I think removing the seal is the best (poss. only) way to do it? They come off easily enough though so not a problem - there are a few instances where Ducati use a single seal.

As far as fitting the bearings, I suggest you warm up the cap and freeze the bearing and it'll likely just drop in...

Mr Gazza · 15-01-2020, 02:58 PM

I tried the freezer method for the first time when I did the wheel bearings on the Norton.
I allowed my wife to have a couple of freezers in my garage, so there was a fringe benefit in this instance.
I simply put the new bearings in the freezer @-18 before I started the fannying with boiling water and so forth to get the old ones out.
By the time I had washed out the old grease and so forth ready to fit the new ones, the hub was only vaguely warm from the drenching with boiling water when I started.
The bearings had only been in the freezer about ten minutes but they dropped to the bottom of their housings with no bother and promptly locked into place. So you don't need to over do the freezing and warming thing to make a big difference.

350TSS · 15-01-2020, 05:40 PM

Well lots of good proress today in less than a couple of hours.
First I fitted the oil seal into the clutch case, the one that that sits over the end of the crankshaft, went in a treat, pressed in with my thumbs with some red rubber grease.
The large seal red that sits around the gearbox input shaft was another story. It would not go in square and kept slipping out, eventually I managed to get it started but had to finish fitting it with a small soft faced dead blow hammer. This seal does not have a register to determine how far into the case it sits, so I had to guess how far to keep tapping it into the case.
The oil pump was then re-installed with new mating seals and then the clutch case was ready to fit.
After I had dosed the gasket faces with three bond and tried to fit it I realised that the big clutch seal was not into the case far enough as the outer lip of the seal was not quite over the edge of the large drilled boss on the input shaft (which the clutch basket bolts to). I had to push it about a 1mm further in for the seal to properly seat.
Next I fitted the gudgeon pin circlips using my home made tool, which did not work first time and needed a tweek with a file to radius the top corners of the SS grub screw. Thereafter it was perfect and took less than 30 seconds to fit each circlip.

thumbs up origin
Thanks for the advice above re bearing fitting.
All the while this was going on the cam bearings with a seal removed from the blind side were sitting in the freezer and the cam bearing caps were reposing in front of the garage fan heater.
For the first one I started it with my thumbs then covered the outer surface with some plastic foam and popped it in the vice and squeezed it. I did not notice that the outer face is not square with the machining for the bearing housing so it ended up about half way in and about 3mm crooked.
This took about 20minutes with the dead blow hammer to get straight.
The second one was started with my thumbs then lightly tapped on the outer race with the dead blow hammer - so a result.

Luddite · 15-01-2020, 10:01 PM

That engine's looking beautiful, Richard.

Glad you managed to overcome your circlip hurdle too. Maybe Albie will be grateful for a loan of your circlip tool in due course...

14-01-2020, 04:37 PM	#11
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	Managed to get back from delivering my son to uni in time to try out my blind bearing puller - what a brilliant bit of kit, both cam bearings were out inside 20 minutes with no dramas whatsoever. huey freeman wallpaper A few problems then showed their face: 1. Ducati do not sell the bearings separately only with the caps at c £18 each. 2. My existing bearing caps have been powder coated and I do not want to lose the look. 3 The old bearings have no discernable electrically etched markings on them. 4 Simply Bearings can supply the same size bearings ID 15mm x 35mm OD x 11mm width but only in C3 designation ( This is probably OK as C3 has a looser tolerance on the track and is for use in environments of heat and high revolutions - being at the top of the cylinder head means that C3 is almost certainly the right sort of bearing to use). 5 The SB offer (c£9 the pair) is for a nitrile sealed bearing both sides of the track, the original bearings have a seal only on the camshaft side presumably to keep an oil bath in the cap to lubricate the bearing. 6 The machining within the cap to hold the bearing is 10.25mm deep, the bearing is 11mm deep, the old bearings were only in about 6mm, although this might have had something to do with the bearings being left in during the powder coating process. So how far do I push the new bearings in? After a bit of pondering, I bought the SB offering and I will remove the extra oil seal on the blind side of the bearing before putting them back and I will press them into their machined space until the outer track "bottoms" That leaves me with one more issue - how to press the new bearings in without damaging the quite fragile powder coating on the outside of the cap????? Last edited by 350TSS; 14-01-2020 at 04:41 PM..

15-01-2020, 02:58 PM	#13
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,834	I tried the freezer method for the first time when I did the wheel bearings on the Norton. I allowed my wife to have a couple of freezers in my garage, so there was a fringe benefit in this instance. I simply put the new bearings in the freezer @-18 before I started the fannying with boiling water and so forth to get the old ones out. By the time I had washed out the old grease and so forth ready to fit the new ones, the hub was only vaguely warm from the drenching with boiling water when I started. The bearings had only been in the freezer about ten minutes but they dropped to the bottom of their housings with no bother and promptly locked into place. So you don't need to over do the freezing and warming thing to make a big difference. __________________

09-01-2020, 04:13 PM	#1
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	Started today by making the gudgeon pin circlip assist tool. I used 20 mm aluminium bar machined down to 11.0mm to go into the pin for 50mm, then machined to 15mm for 25mm. The circlip guide is an 8mm SS socket grub screw. I made the handle long enough to be able to use it when the engine is in the frame and both cases, clutch and alternator are still attached. A piece of 6mm mild steel forms the Tee handle with the ends heated and flattened to make it captive.

09-01-2020, 04:20 PM	#2
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	I haven't used the above tool yet as I am still waiting for parts and want to put the piston back when I have all the bits. To assist with piston replacement I bought one of these sets, could probably have used a large jubilee clip and a strip of 1mm polypropylene, but I have got my 750SS and a 3.5 Moto Morini to do next so the set will not be wasted. The gripper pliers have a clever ratchet arrangement so both hands can be manipulating the barrel.

09-01-2020, 04:55 PM	#3
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	The next job I tackled was preparing the clutch case ready to be put back on. I am still awaiting the rubber seals that sit between the oil pump and the crankcase and once these arrive the case can be buttoned up. I needed to replace the oil level window which suffered a bit duing the powder coating. I left it in as I knew I was going to replace it. A couple of taps with a nylon faced mallet and it came out relatively easily, although the housing inside the clutch case needed a fair bit of cleaning. The other job was to replace the crankshaft oil seal which takes the oil from the pressure switch and ensures it is is directed through the RH crankshaft to the big ends. The rubber (nitrile) had gone completely hard and it disintegrated when I touched it. wallpaper legend of the seeker Getting the metal backing of the seal out of the recess it fits into was a right palaver and took a good couple of hours. I had to be careful attacking it as there is a bronze crankshaft support bush right behind the seal in the clutch case. I tried my seal removal tool but could not get any purchase between the seal and the bronze bush. Electrical screwdrivers used as chisels were driven between the aluminium casting and the metal backing to the seal. I was really conscious that if the housing leaked then big end oil pressure would be reduced. I then tried my smallest chisel which achieved nothing. Finally, I resorted to a rotary file in a dremel to wear through the outer skin, without distressing the cast housing. Eventually, my seal removal tool was tried again and out it came, the housing suffered only very slightly, a light dressing with a scothbrite pad and a smear of three bond on the outside of the new seal should ensure that the seal performs as intended. Finally a picture of my cylinder heads for no other reason than I think they look nice.

09-01-2020, 06:30 PM	#4
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Personally, although it might be ok as it is, I think I'd be inclined to remove the thread from the protruding section of the grub screw. Should be easy enough to do, either in a drilled and tapped plug in the lathe or just with a file off an allen key held in the vice, perhaps.

09-01-2020, 06:59 PM	#5
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	Nice work fabricating the circlip tool so quickly, Richard. Look forward to hearing how it performs. And, yes, your cylinder heads do look good - they'd make a nice pair of bookends to keep all my Motocourse annuals upright!

10-01-2020, 05:40 AM	#6
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	Utopia: the extent of protrusion of the grub screw might affect whether or not the tool actually works so is subject to a bit of trial and error (read in and out adjustment). I seriously considered trying to make the protrusion revolve so the circlip will glide into place rather than be forced into place, but that was just too difficult to do and the protrusion height can only be about 1mm to 1.5mm anyway and the base is curved. In the end, I settled on a SS grub screw as it is probably harder than the spring steel of the circlip and even thought that the existence of the thread might assist retention of the circlip in front of the protrusion, provided I screw the circlip in the right way. Luddite : Thanks - I hope the heads will be more mobile than book ends in the reasonably forseeable future

10-01-2020, 05:26 PM	#7
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	Whilst I am waiting bits I cannot get on with the big stuff so it was messingabout with bits and bobs. I took the horizontal piston off and decoked the crown and the ring lands. Whilst both pistons are off I took the opportunity to clean the crankcase barrel mating surfaces. The old gasket goo here was like an orange baked on varnish and quite difficult to remove, particularly around the studs. I would quite like not to use any gasket goo on the cylinder base when I reassemble - what have others used when reassembling the barrels to the crankcase? The alternator case gasket face on the crankcase was covered in that light grey silicone gasket cement whch I got of wth a combination of a blunt screwdriver, WD40 and a 25mm square cut from a scotchbrite pad. I also ran a 6mm plug tap down all the tapped holes for the alternator and clutch casings as all the cap screws that came out were heavily corroded (4 years of commuting in all weathers and cleaned once a year whether it needed it or not). I also fitted a new oil sight glass to the clutch case and installed new release bearing to the clutch centre plate. So progress but not what you would call satisfying progress.

11-01-2020, 10:37 PM	#9
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	Thanks Dukedesmo

13-01-2020, 05:50 PM	#10
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	Recieved my blind bearing puller set late this afternoon, tomorrow is ferrying No 1 son back to university and hopefully my Moto Rapido order arrives Wednesday so I can then get the engine put together. miki vocaloid Worryingly, I cannot put my hands on the flywheel or the sprag clutch and associated big gear or the clutch centre and nut, I have just not come across them when rummaging for other parts recently. They are undoubtedly safely stashed somewhere, I just do not know exactly where right now.

15-01-2020, 05:40 PM	#14
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,420	Well lots of good proress today in less than a couple of hours. First I fitted the oil seal into the clutch case, the one that that sits over the end of the crankshaft, went in a treat, pressed in with my thumbs with some red rubber grease. The large seal red that sits around the gearbox input shaft was another story. It would not go in square and kept slipping out, eventually I managed to get it started but had to finish fitting it with a small soft faced dead blow hammer. This seal does not have a register to determine how far into the case it sits, so I had to guess how far to keep tapping it into the case. The oil pump was then re-installed with new mating seals and then the clutch case was ready to fit. After I had dosed the gasket faces with three bond and tried to fit it I realised that the big clutch seal was not into the case far enough as the outer lip of the seal was not quite over the edge of the large drilled boss on the input shaft (which the clutch basket bolts to). I had to push it about a 1mm further in for the seal to properly seat. Next I fitted the gudgeon pin circlips using my home made tool, which did not work first time and needed a tweek with a file to radius the top corners of the SS grub screw. Thereafter it was perfect and took less than 30 seconds to fit each circlip. thumbs up origin Thanks for the advice above re bearing fitting. All the while this was going on the cam bearings with a seal removed from the blind side were sitting in the freezer and the cam bearing caps were reposing in front of the garage fan heater. For the first one I started it with my thumbs then covered the outer surface with some plastic foam and popped it in the vice and squeezed it. I did not notice that the outer face is not square with the machining for the bearing housing so it ended up about half way in and about 3mm crooked. This took about 20minutes with the dead blow hammer to get straight. The second one was started with my thumbs then lightly tapped on the outer race with the dead blow hammer - so a result.

15-01-2020, 10:01 PM	#15
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	That engine's looking beautiful, Richard. Glad you managed to overcome your circlip hurdle too. Maybe Albie will be grateful for a loan of your circlip tool in due course...