Can't find neutral with engine running

m600jim · 11-10-2021, 07:51 PM

I have a 1997 M600. It has a new clutch master cylinder and braided hose, new fluid and bled so no bubbles at either end. When the engine is running it seems impossible to find neutral, it jumps between 1st and 2nd. If I turn off the engine it drops into neutral easily from either 1st or 2nd.
Any ideas for some fault finding steps?
Thanks
Jim

Nickj · 11-10-2021, 08:17 PM

All of my 750's, essentially the same family of motors, were quite sensitive to chain tension as far as hitting neutral went.
A generality but they can be a pain when at a standstill, if you slip into neutral just before you stop you'll never miss.
So it's more a 'feature' than a fault

Dukedesmo · 11-10-2021, 10:40 PM

Never worked on a wet clutch Monster but on the dry clutch models, difficulty selecting neutral with the engine running can be caused by too thick a clutch 'pack' - basically it is dragging when clutch pulled in so it makes the fine movement required for a half-shift difficult.

Reducing the pack thickness helps, wear does this eventually anyway, selecting neutral whilst still on the move may get round the problem.

However, I don't know if the same applies to a wet clutch and it's obviously not as easy to adjust/play with as a dry clutch...

Mr Gazza · 12-10-2021, 06:51 AM

Ah! yes wet clutch.
Its the engine oil that makes or breaks the clutch on those.
Your oil could be in need of a change? You must use a motorcycle specific oil with a wet clutch or it could end up slipping due to the type of friction reducers used in general oils.
I think JASO is one of the codes you need to look for, but better educated than me will soon post the relevant spec.
I used Castrol power 1 racing 4T with good results on a wet clutch, other oils are available..

m600jim · 12-10-2021, 07:16 AM

Thanks all,
It has new oil (Shell Advanced Ultra 10/40) so I'll try the "change into neutral while still rolling" approach....
Cheers
Jim

Zimbo · 12-10-2021, 06:21 PM

As above, get neutral whilst still rolling, or if at a standstill then in 1st just "edge" the bike forwards and try to snick it into neutral with the bike moving slightly?

m600jim · 13-10-2021, 07:19 AM

Thanks Zimbo, I've tried the usual "rick it back and forwards a bit" which doesn't help and also dropping into neutral while rolling which also doesn't seem to make much difference. However the chain looks like it might be a bit tight so I'll loosen that a bit. I also found that after about 30 mins of riding it all seems fine, no problems engaging neutral at all. But after a 15 min coffee break the problem was back.
Clutch lever actuation point is very quick (I don't have to pull it in very far at all) so probably not a dragging clutch and no air in the clutch lines....
I'll adjust the chain and report back

Darren69 · 13-10-2021, 09:34 AM

It sounds like it's a normal issue with the earlier wet clutch bikes, my '97 750SS was the same temperament the 900SS not so much. I found slacking the chain helped and I dialed in my riding style to anticipate at lights and such by shifting before coming to a complete stop.

motomartin11 · 13-10-2021, 10:06 AM

My M750 does this but I can always manage to engage neutral with some careful foot work. I always tend to have my chain on the slack side of the specified tolerance.

Nickj · 13-10-2021, 10:06 AM

It kind of goes with the more considered approach to riding you need to adopt to get the most/best out of the motors.

Darren69 · 13-10-2021, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickj

It kind of goes with the more considered approach to riding you need to adopt to get the most/best out of the motors.

The Italians would call it 'character'. We'd call it character building!

motomartin11 · 13-10-2021, 11:38 AM

Yes - if you're used to the convenience of Jap bikes-you almost need another approach.
If you're used to trad Brit bikes (not Hinckley Triumphs) or classic Italian then you have to try to work WITH the bike not against it.
This approach doesn't always work however!

Darren69 · 13-10-2021, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motomartin11

Yes - if you're used to the convenience of Jap bikes-you almost need another approach.
If you're used to trad Brit bikes (not Hinckley Triumphs) or classic Italian then you have to try to work WITH the bike not against it.
This approach doesn't always work however!

That's pretty much it. The small case motors had very little development since the late 70's Pantah/Cagiva Alazzurra motor on which they are based. The large case motors only really benefited from development on the back of SBK racing so the later injection ones are actually really nice to ride which was probably the intention all along but it was only when the $$$ came rolling in from the 851/888/916 bikes winning races that they really could produce the road bikes that were nearly as good.

m600jim · 20-10-2021, 01:41 PM

Some good news on this. I found that the gear linkage was very loose. Specifically the pinch bolt on the splined gearbox shaft was loose and also the front spherical joint was loose in its arm. Having tightened both of these up the mechanism is now much more precise and I can get neutral pretty easily even when stationary (sometimes requires a slight rocking of the bike) and if I drop into neutral while still rolling it's easy to find.
Will give it a good long ride tomorrow when it's sunny but looking good so far. Hope this helps someone!

11-10-2021, 07:51 PM	#1
m600jim Registered User Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Bike: M600 Posts: 27	Can't find neutral with engine running I have a 1997 M600. It has a new clutch master cylinder and braided hose, new fluid and bled so no bubbles at either end. When the engine is running it seems impossible to find neutral, it jumps between 1st and 2nd. If I turn off the engine it drops into neutral easily from either 1st or 2nd. Any ideas for some fault finding steps? Thanks Jim

11-10-2021, 08:17 PM	#2
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,195	All of my 750's, essentially the same family of motors, were quite sensitive to chain tension as far as hitting neutral went. A generality but they can be a pain when at a standstill, if you slip into neutral just before you stop you'll never miss. So it's more a 'feature' than a fault __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature

11-10-2021, 10:40 PM	#3
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,844	Never worked on a wet clutch Monster but on the dry clutch models, difficulty selecting neutral with the engine running can be caused by too thick a clutch 'pack' - basically it is dragging when clutch pulled in so it makes the fine movement required for a half-shift difficult. Reducing the pack thickness helps, wear does this eventually anyway, selecting neutral whilst still on the move may get round the problem. However, I don't know if the same applies to a wet clutch and it's obviously not as easy to adjust/play with as a dry clutch... __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

12-10-2021, 06:51 AM	#4
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,831	Ah! yes wet clutch. Its the engine oil that makes or breaks the clutch on those. Your oil could be in need of a change? You must use a motorcycle specific oil with a wet clutch or it could end up slipping due to the type of friction reducers used in general oils. I think JASO is one of the codes you need to look for, but better educated than me will soon post the relevant spec. I used Castrol power 1 racing 4T with good results on a wet clutch, other oils are available.. __________________

13-10-2021, 09:34 AM	#8
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,025	It sounds like it's a normal issue with the earlier wet clutch bikes, my '97 750SS was the same temperament the 900SS not so much. I found slacking the chain helped and I dialed in my riding style to anticipate at lights and such by shifting before coming to a complete stop. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

12-10-2021, 07:16 AM	#5
m600jim Registered User Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Bike: M600 Posts: 27	Thanks all, It has new oil (Shell Advanced Ultra 10/40) so I'll try the "change into neutral while still rolling" approach.... Cheers Jim

12-10-2021, 06:21 PM	#6
Zimbo Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Stonehouse, Glos Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,079	As above, get neutral whilst still rolling, or if at a standstill then in 1st just "edge" the bike forwards and try to snick it into neutral with the bike moving slightly?

13-10-2021, 07:19 AM	#7
m600jim Registered User Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Bike: M600 Posts: 27	Thanks Zimbo, I've tried the usual "rick it back and forwards a bit" which doesn't help and also dropping into neutral while rolling which also doesn't seem to make much difference. However the chain looks like it might be a bit tight so I'll loosen that a bit. I also found that after about 30 mins of riding it all seems fine, no problems engaging neutral at all. But after a 15 min coffee break the problem was back. Clutch lever actuation point is very quick (I don't have to pull it in very far at all) so probably not a dragging clutch and no air in the clutch lines.... I'll adjust the chain and report back

13-10-2021, 10:06 AM	#9
motomartin11 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: stourbridge Bike: M750 Posts: 352	My M750 does this but I can always manage to engage neutral with some careful foot work. I always tend to have my chain on the slack side of the specified tolerance.

13-10-2021, 11:38 AM	#12
motomartin11 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: stourbridge Bike: M750 Posts: 352	Yes - if you're used to the convenience of Jap bikes-you almost need another approach. If you're used to trad Brit bikes (not Hinckley Triumphs) or classic Italian then you have to try to work WITH the bike not against it. This approach doesn't always work however!

20-10-2021, 01:41 PM	#14
m600jim Registered User Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Bike: M600 Posts: 27	Some good news on this. I found that the gear linkage was very loose. Specifically the pinch bolt on the splined gearbox shaft was loose and also the front spherical joint was loose in its arm. Having tightened both of these up the mechanism is now much more precise and I can get neutral pretty easily even when stationary (sometimes requires a slight rocking of the bike) and if I drop into neutral while still rolling it's easy to find. Will give it a good long ride tomorrow when it's sunny but looking good so far. Hope this helps someone!