Parking it up for the winter. - Page 6

FrankenDesmo · 19-05-2020, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

It's not clear what year your bike is and what the original equipment would be.

...

Haha tell me about it. It started life as a 94 M600 but the only thing that remains M600 is the frame. The engine is an early V2, but the brakes could easily be 98+ as the clutch is a remote reservoir unit, though the brake has always been this AP Racing unit, which I have no history for other than AP themselves telling me it's a very early version, and they started production in the early 90s.

If I were to go back to "stock" (the term doesn't apply to my bike since it's a hybrid) then I'd consider that to be the 16mm Goldline master, as that's what I'm used to (I've not owned a coffin Monster).

That's interesting information re: piston/lever force/feel - the AP unit is definitely quite wooden, but I hadn't played with it's ratio adjuster yet, and it appears to be missing the knob for reach adjustment. I believe you're right about the ratio adjusters being there is bring some of the progressive feel of a smaller piston - it's also be what the 18-20 means for the RCS unit, the range of feel being 18mm - 20mm.

I remember being very impressed with the stock brakes on my 99 M900 once the calipers had been rebuilt. Maybe the 16mm is really the one to go for. Hmm.

Mr Gazza · 19-05-2020, 05:09 PM

I think the 16mm Goldline is going to be the best you will get, especially if you have the Goldline callipers, although I think the callipers are the same size as in the former model?

I'm not surprised that your 20mm AP feels woody, I don't think you're ever going to get any kind of fell into it however much you play with the lever moment.

The ratio of master to calliper is a complicated one to work out and it's worse as there are multiple pistons in the calliper of two diameters. It's way above my head to contemplate such maths, but rest assured it's been done at manufacture stage, and tested, which makes the original set up the most sensible.. It's surprising what a big difference a mil on the master will make.

Luddite · 19-05-2020, 05:14 PM

Some more information in this thread...

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=56557

slob · 19-05-2020, 05:42 PM

With 2x 4pot calipers, I'd be going for the 19mm, to make sure you get enough fluid pumped.
The RCS arrangement (as described in Luddite's link) will effectively allow you to dial in more 'feel'.
FWIW, I have a 19x18 fixed ratio radial MC on one of my bikes, with twin 4pot goldline calipers and it's fine although you'll never really need more than one finger on the lever.

FrankenDesmo · 19-05-2020, 05:44 PM

1-2 fingers is a habit I've fallen into, so that's a plus for the RCS

Darren69 · 19-05-2020, 06:01 PM

Just to confuse the issue further, there are 2 types of the gold line masters that I'm aware of. The earlier ones had a large pivot like these on my Monster: -

They are actually the wrong ones for an '02 which should have the later small pivot type. I have the exact same large pivot ones on my '97 748. I think the pistons are a different size slightly between the 2 types. The early ones are I believe PS15 brake and PS13 clutch vs the later PS16 brake and PS12 clutch, but it seems also there were PS15 in the later type (looking at Ducati Paddy site).

I'm more than happy with the brakes on mine and I think there is a benefit in having a larger clutch master with the larger clutch slave too.

FrankenDesmo · 19-05-2020, 07:52 PM

I keep coming back to the 19mm RCS unit, so I've put an order in for one.

FrankenDesmo · 26-05-2020, 12:07 PM

Still waiting for the new 19 RCS master to turn up, in the meantime I've done the chain & sprockets. Only my second time fitting a new chain, and the first time was on a Suzuki RG150 so the clip link was sufficient - this time round I've done it properly with the rivet link. Fortunately I've been watching quite a few of The Workshop's videos on youtube, so was well prepared to pick the correct tool and get the correct flare on the rivets.

Matt recommends getting an imitation D.I.D chain breaker tool (I picked up one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/312758458994) and the genuine D.I.D rivet pin (KM500R - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153297890562), which I also found on ebay. Total cost was around £55 vs the £120 for the official tool and it works absolutely fine.

FrankenDesmo · 27-05-2020, 07:01 PM

The master arrived with a split in the rubber boot over the piston plunger

FrankenDesmo · 31-05-2020, 11:15 AM

Managed to get a replacement sent out via express courier, which arrived (and was installed) on Friday. Bled it up and left it overnight with the lever tied on - with the span & ratio it was set to at the factory (I'm not sure what it is set at), I've already got much better reach and feel.

Of course, now that I can really feel the brakes, I can feel the noticeable warp in the disc

- but that can wait as the brakes are still perfectly serviceable as-is (caliper re-kit & disc/pad replacement will come "soon").

I think I've finally reached a point where the bike is more or less OK for the road, all I've got left to do is replace the tyres and the aforementioned discs/pads & caliper re-kit before I move onto customising the bike further to my own taste.

Darren69 · 31-05-2020, 11:45 AM

Re the warped discs. If you have the Brembo semi floating type then the bobbins can get stuck with dirt and brake dust so it may be worth going through them all and checking they can move and cleaning with brake cleaner before writing off the disc.

Luddite · 31-05-2020, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenDesmo

...with the span & ratio it was set to at the factory (I'm not sure what it is set at), I've already got much better reach and feel.

This should help you to recognize the ratio:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luddite

It's a bit like shifting your weight on a seesaw and easier to grasp if you see how the m/c works:

With the pivot further from the piston, you need more effort but less movement whereas with the pivot closer to the piston, you feel less effort but more movement.

Nice design!

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...31&postcount=8

Mr Gazza · 31-05-2020, 12:03 PM

You're getting somewhere now.

If it is warped discs then it will show up on the brake testing rolling road and you will probably get an MOT fail!

More often than not it is what is known (so I am told) as surface conditioning.
This means that you could have slippy and grippy areas on the disc(s). Often caused by a patch of damp under the pads, making a patch of slight rust or vice versa if the rest of the disc is damp and the pad keeps a patch dry.

I have found that the solution to this is a severe spanking followed by a good hard lever tugging session.

By which I mean; getting to a healthy cruising speed then very progressively give a long hard brake application, as long and hard as you can. DO NOT come to a stop or let the brake off suddenly. Gently let the brake off and accelerate away immediately to repeat the exercise, ad nauseum. Please try and do this safely on a long straight empty road... Check your mirrors!

That has always worked for me, although I have also had actual warped discs (all three!) You need a dial gauge to establish that they are warped.

If they are warped the spank and tug exercise will just get more violent as they get hotter!

I just thought I would say that you need to make your own decision about acting on the advice of someone on the internet, or a bloke down the pub for that matter..

350TSS · 31-05-2020, 07:14 PM

Agree with the point about the bobbins and corrosion.
I read somewhere that sometimes the appearance of warped discs can be the result of corrosion between the disc face and the wheel. Might be worth checking before lashing out on new discs

utopia · 01-06-2020, 01:28 AM

I'm firmly convinced that most cases of so-called "warped" discs are incorrectly diagnosed.
Far more common (in my opinion) is the uneven surface conditioning that Gazza describes.
In the past, the discs on my 750 suffered from mild pulsing for quite some time but the same discs have been performing perfectly for many years now.
Here's a thread on the subject.

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...t=warped+discs

ps. I never did get round to fitting the full-floating bobbins mentioned in the thread .. the discs remain as standard as the day they left the factory.

19-05-2020, 05:09 PM	#77
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,983	I think the 16mm Goldline is going to be the best you will get, especially if you have the Goldline callipers, although I think the callipers are the same size as in the former model? I'm not surprised that your 20mm AP feels woody, I don't think you're ever going to get any kind of fell into it however much you play with the lever moment. The ratio of master to calliper is a complicated one to work out and it's worse as there are multiple pistons in the calliper of two diameters. It's way above my head to contemplate such maths, but rest assured it's been done at manufacture stage, and tested, which makes the original set up the most sensible.. It's surprising what a big difference a mil on the master will make. __________________

19-05-2020, 06:01 PM	#81
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	Just to confuse the issue further, there are 2 types of the gold line masters that I'm aware of. The earlier ones had a large pivot like these on my Monster: - They are actually the wrong ones for an '02 which should have the later small pivot type. I have the exact same large pivot ones on my '97 748. I think the pistons are a different size slightly between the 2 types. The early ones are I believe PS15 brake and PS13 clutch vs the later PS16 brake and PS12 clutch, but it seems also there were PS15 in the later type (looking at Ducati Paddy site). I'm more than happy with the brakes on mine and I think there is a benefit in having a larger clutch master with the larger clutch slave too. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

31-05-2020, 11:45 AM	#86
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	Re the warped discs. If you have the Brembo semi floating type then the bobbins can get stuck with dirt and brake dust so it may be worth going through them all and checking they can move and cleaning with brake cleaner before writing off the disc. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

31-05-2020, 12:03 PM	#88
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,983	You're getting somewhere now. If it is warped discs then it will show up on the brake testing rolling road and you will probably get an MOT fail! More often than not it is what is known (so I am told) as surface conditioning. This means that you could have slippy and grippy areas on the disc(s). Often caused by a patch of damp under the pads, making a patch of slight rust or vice versa if the rest of the disc is damp and the pad keeps a patch dry. I have found that the solution to this is a severe spanking followed by a good hard lever tugging session. By which I mean; getting to a healthy cruising speed then very progressively give a long hard brake application, as long and hard as you can. DO NOT come to a stop or let the brake off suddenly. Gently let the brake off and accelerate away immediately to repeat the exercise, ad nauseum. Please try and do this safely on a long straight empty road... Check your mirrors! That has always worked for me, although I have also had actual warped discs (all three!) You need a dial gauge to establish that they are warped. If they are warped the spank and tug exercise will just get more violent as they get hotter! I just thought I would say that you need to make your own decision about acting on the advice of someone on the internet, or a bloke down the pub for that matter.. __________________ Last edited by Mr Gazza; 31-05-2020 at 01:02 PM.. Reason: Disclaimer added, just in case!

19-05-2020, 05:14 PM	#78
Luddite Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Southampton Bike: M1100evo Posts: 2,465	Some more information in this thread... http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=56557

19-05-2020, 05:42 PM	#79
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,736	With 2x 4pot calipers, I'd be going for the 19mm, to make sure you get enough fluid pumped. The RCS arrangement (as described in Luddite's link) will effectively allow you to dial in more 'feel'. FWIW, I have a 19x18 fixed ratio radial MC on one of my bikes, with twin 4pot goldline calipers and it's fine although you'll never really need more than one finger on the lever.

19-05-2020, 05:44 PM	#80
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	1-2 fingers is a habit I've fallen into, so that's a plus for the RCS

19-05-2020, 07:52 PM	#82
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	I keep coming back to the 19mm RCS unit, so I've put an order in for one.

26-05-2020, 12:07 PM	#83
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	Still waiting for the new 19 RCS master to turn up, in the meantime I've done the chain & sprockets. Only my second time fitting a new chain, and the first time was on a Suzuki RG150 so the clip link was sufficient - this time round I've done it properly with the rivet link. Fortunately I've been watching quite a few of The Workshop's videos on youtube, so was well prepared to pick the correct tool and get the correct flare on the rivets. Matt recommends getting an imitation D.I.D chain breaker tool (I picked up one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/312758458994) and the genuine D.I.D rivet pin (KM500R - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153297890562), which I also found on ebay. Total cost was around £55 vs the £120 for the official tool and it works absolutely fine.

27-05-2020, 07:01 PM	#84
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	The master arrived with a split in the rubber boot over the piston plunger

31-05-2020, 11:15 AM	#85
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	Managed to get a replacement sent out via express courier, which arrived (and was installed) on Friday. Bled it up and left it overnight with the lever tied on - with the span & ratio it was set to at the factory (I'm not sure what it is set at), I've already got much better reach and feel. Of course, now that I can really feel the brakes, I can feel the noticeable warp in the disc - but that can wait as the brakes are still perfectly serviceable as-is (caliper re-kit & disc/pad replacement will come "soon"). I think I've finally reached a point where the bike is more or less OK for the road, all I've got left to do is replace the tyres and the aforementioned discs/pads & caliper re-kit before I move onto customising the bike further to my own taste.

31-05-2020, 07:14 PM	#89
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Agree with the point about the bobbins and corrosion. I read somewhere that sometimes the appearance of warped discs can be the result of corrosion between the disc face and the wheel. Might be worth checking before lashing out on new discs

01-06-2020, 01:28 AM	#90
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,561	I'm firmly convinced that most cases of so-called "warped" discs are incorrectly diagnosed. Far more common (in my opinion) is the uneven surface conditioning that Gazza describes. In the past, the discs on my 750 suffered from mild pulsing for quite some time but the same discs have been performing perfectly for many years now. Here's a thread on the subject. http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...t=warped+discs ps. I never did get round to fitting the full-floating bobbins mentioned in the thread .. the discs remain as standard as the day they left the factory.