Parking it up for the winter. - Page 5

FrankenDesmo · 11-05-2020, 01:15 PM

That was going to be my alternative, but it turns out Andover Norton has the kits in stock so one of them is on the way (for only £13!).

Darren69 · 11-05-2020, 01:36 PM

There's nothing much half decent on a certain auction site for under £100 unless you want the coffin style ones?

FrankenDesmo · 12-05-2020, 12:55 PM

No, I'd've rather stuck with the remote reservoir type. Fortunately Andover have the kit for my AP master, so just waiting for that to arrive. Would much rather keep that going, given that a new AP master is circa £500! (albeit a newer version, but still).

alan s4 · 12-05-2020, 04:31 PM

I've got all the bits you need for the sprag. If it was me I would replace the entire unit and not just the spring (it's the lugs that get worn out). Having been through the pain of diagnosing starting issues (lasting 7 years) the sprag would be my 1st port of call now.

I've got........

400nm impact wrench
30mm deep impact socket
300nm torque wrench

You can also have the Ducati Gasket sealant and the red thread lock.

I'm in Glasgow (Clarkston) so you are more than welcome to borrow the lot when you get round to the job!

FrankenDesmo · 13-05-2020, 12:09 PM

Cheers Alan! Offer goes both ways, if I happen to have a tool or consumable.

I've got the engine buttoned back up now, and since replacing the starter, solenoid, and wiring it now starts incredibly easily. I thought I'd do the sprag spring as a "while I'm in there" task, but didn't have the magneto holder & torque wrench (although I'm running out of things I can fix without the wrench!) - plus there was a little nagging thought of "don't go too far down the rabbit hole" so I decided to stick with just doing what I went in there for - replacing the starter.

With any luck the next time that'll come apart is because I'm stripping the engine down for an inspection/rebuild/paint. At which point I'd probably look to replace the one-way bearing as well as the driven gear (and nut/washers etc).

Once this lockdown is properly lifted I'd be keen for a ride with other monster owners nearby! I'm in Crookston so not far away.

FrankenDesmo · 19-05-2020, 01:06 AM

Bugger.

It turns out that the AP Racing master that I've got isn't really designed to be user serviceable, and I'm unable to get it to bits. Speaking with AP, they said they made the kit available as some customers were making their own tools for stripping them down, and that they otherwise re-kit them at the factory. That'd cost £75 not including the cost of the seal kit - unless other parts need replacing - and I've been told it is one of the first of this model master cylinder from the 90s so it's fairly old now. I was keen to give it a go but they're unable to give me a time to send it in due to the current circumstances.

So I'm going to replace it.

Having had a look at ebay for second hand original master cylinders, there doesn't appear to be anything local vs the states, and tbh I think I'd rather put a new part on anyway. So I'm considering this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193037768382.

This does possibly delay the tyre replacement :/

350TSS · 19-05-2020, 04:01 AM

Before you buy it might be worth asking if it has a front brake switch fixing position, I cannot see one on the picture. Early coffin master cylinders have a small rectangular microswitch about 17mm x 15mm x about 5mm deep with a single 2mm fixing hole about 6 mm from the top edge.
If there is none you could fit a banjo bolt with a hydraulic pressure switch which will need to be Brembo thread size for banjos which from memory is 10mm x 1mm

350TSS · 19-05-2020, 04:06 AM

Also if your bike has the coffin style you will also obviously need the remote reservoir and the pipe and bracket

Darren69 · 19-05-2020, 07:07 AM

You usually have to fit a banjo type switch with those and you'll need the reservoir kit too. That's still a good price for an RCS.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-1....c100707.m1851

Darren69 · 19-05-2020, 07:12 AM

Looks like there is a version with a brake switch: -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BREMBO-RC....c100005.m1851

Mr Gazza · 19-05-2020, 08:10 AM

Have you had a look at what Ducati Paddy has got? http://www.ducatipaddy.com/page29.html

I've always found him to be very helpful and resourceful.

Dukedesmo · 19-05-2020, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

Looks like there is a version with a brake switch: -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BREMBO-RC....c100005.m1851

Brembo RCS have a brake switch built-in, the earlier style Brembo radial (non adjustable ratio) don't - at least the one I have on my 916 doesn't, and so needs a banjo pressure switch.

FrankenDesmo · 19-05-2020, 03:30 PM

Cheers for the reminders about reservoirs and switches - fortunately I already have a remote reservoir and the banjo bolt on the AP master has a pressure switch, though that is a good point about the thread so I'll check that it matches brembo in case I need it.

Anyway both kits that have been linked have switches and banjo bolts in them so I should be all good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

Have you had a look at what Ducati Paddy has got? http://www.ducatipaddy.com/page29.html

I've always found him to be very helpful and resourceful.

I wasn't aware of him, no. I see he has the stock looking masters (the gold ones - remote reservoir), but what is the original unit? PSC16 seems like the most likely out of what's on that page, but then that would be 16mm vs 19mm on the ebay units. I don't have one here to measure though.

I will admit I am a bit taken by the darker colour of the 19RCS, and the "shiny & new" factor is nice, too. Of course I'll then have to get the matching clutch master

FrankenDesmo · 19-05-2020, 04:03 PM

Gah, I am terrible for asking a question and then going off and answering it myself... The stock master appears to be 16mm, so the PSC16 is likely the right unit. Which means the 19RCS is oversized - buuuut the AP Racing master is .875" which is ~22mm!

I doubt it matters much though, as I remember my first Monster stopped on a dime once I got the brakes sorted out (mostly a caliper rebuild, from memory).

Still leaning towards the 19RCS at the moment but I'm going to keep pondering as it's too late in the day to get one shipped.

Mr Gazza · 19-05-2020, 04:34 PM

It's not clear what year your bike is and what the original equipment would be.

For a single disc Ducati use a 13mm master (12.7 actually or 1/2") this moves enough fluid for 4 pots and gives sufficient leverage. For twin discs they used 15mm with the coffin type and then 16mm for the Goldline remote res ones. Goldlines would have come in about 1999.

A smaller master piston will apply more lever force to the caliper but will need more lever travel. a larger master piston will feel a bit sharper but need more finger pressure for the same braking force, it will have less lever movement.

When I had a 750SS with single disc and 12.7mm coffin master, I upgraded to twin discs, but retained the 12.7mm master. This resulted in a slightly larger lever travel but the force that could be progressively fed into those brakes was phenomenal. The feel and feedback was very good indeed. Power + control = the holy grail!

My personal preference would be to go for the 16mm master for better feel and more power. A 19mm is probably going to feel woody and not exert so much pressure.? (I have no experience of later brakes with larger masters, I can only assume that they are intended for bigger caliper pistons or more pots.)

Another factor in the mechanical advantage of a hydraulic system is the lever itself. The closer the pivot pin to the piston actuator, the more leverage it will give for more lever travel. I believe this leverage moment is adjustable on Radial masters? So you can get back the leverage that has been lost with a larger master piston.

11-05-2020, 01:15 PM	#61
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	That was going to be my alternative, but it turns out Andover Norton has the kits in stock so one of them is on the way (for only £13!). Last edited by FrankenDesmo; 11-05-2020 at 01:17 PM..

11-05-2020, 01:36 PM	#62
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	There's nothing much half decent on a certain auction site for under £100 unless you want the coffin style ones? __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

19-05-2020, 07:07 AM	#69
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	You usually have to fit a banjo type switch with those and you'll need the reservoir kit too. That's still a good price for an RCS. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-1....c100707.m1851 __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

19-05-2020, 07:12 AM	#70
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	Looks like there is a version with a brake switch: - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BREMBO-RC....c100005.m1851 __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

19-05-2020, 08:10 AM	#71
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,984	Have you had a look at what Ducati Paddy has got? http://www.ducatipaddy.com/page29.html I've always found him to be very helpful and resourceful. __________________

12-05-2020, 12:55 PM	#63
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	No, I'd've rather stuck with the remote reservoir type. Fortunately Andover have the kit for my AP master, so just waiting for that to arrive. Would much rather keep that going, given that a new AP master is circa £500! (albeit a newer version, but still).

12-05-2020, 04:31 PM	#64
alan s4 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Glasgow Bike: S4 challenge Posts: 447	I've got all the bits you need for the sprag. If it was me I would replace the entire unit and not just the spring (it's the lugs that get worn out). Having been through the pain of diagnosing starting issues (lasting 7 years) the sprag would be my 1st port of call now. I've got........ 400nm impact wrench 30mm deep impact socket 300nm torque wrench You can also have the Ducati Gasket sealant and the red thread lock. I'm in Glasgow (Clarkston) so you are more than welcome to borrow the lot when you get round to the job!

13-05-2020, 12:09 PM	#65
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	Cheers Alan! Offer goes both ways, if I happen to have a tool or consumable. I've got the engine buttoned back up now, and since replacing the starter, solenoid, and wiring it now starts incredibly easily. I thought I'd do the sprag spring as a "while I'm in there" task, but didn't have the magneto holder & torque wrench (although I'm running out of things I can fix without the wrench!) - plus there was a little nagging thought of "don't go too far down the rabbit hole" so I decided to stick with just doing what I went in there for - replacing the starter. With any luck the next time that'll come apart is because I'm stripping the engine down for an inspection/rebuild/paint. At which point I'd probably look to replace the one-way bearing as well as the driven gear (and nut/washers etc). Once this lockdown is properly lifted I'd be keen for a ride with other monster owners nearby! I'm in Crookston so not far away.

19-05-2020, 01:06 AM	#66
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	Bugger. It turns out that the AP Racing master that I've got isn't really designed to be user serviceable, and I'm unable to get it to bits. Speaking with AP, they said they made the kit available as some customers were making their own tools for stripping them down, and that they otherwise re-kit them at the factory. That'd cost £75 not including the cost of the seal kit - unless other parts need replacing - and I've been told it is one of the first of this model master cylinder from the 90s so it's fairly old now. I was keen to give it a go but they're unable to give me a time to send it in due to the current circumstances. So I'm going to replace it. Having had a look at ebay for second hand original master cylinders, there doesn't appear to be anything local vs the states, and tbh I think I'd rather put a new part on anyway. So I'm considering this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193037768382. This does possibly delay the tyre replacement :/

19-05-2020, 04:01 AM	#67
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Before you buy it might be worth asking if it has a front brake switch fixing position, I cannot see one on the picture. Early coffin master cylinders have a small rectangular microswitch about 17mm x 15mm x about 5mm deep with a single 2mm fixing hole about 6 mm from the top edge. If there is none you could fit a banjo bolt with a hydraulic pressure switch which will need to be Brembo thread size for banjos which from memory is 10mm x 1mm

19-05-2020, 04:06 AM	#68
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Also if your bike has the coffin style you will also obviously need the remote reservoir and the pipe and bracket

19-05-2020, 04:03 PM	#74
FrankenDesmo Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Glasgow Bike: M900 Posts: 108	Gah, I am terrible for asking a question and then going off and answering it myself... The stock master appears to be 16mm, so the PSC16 is likely the right unit. Which means the 19RCS is oversized - buuuut the AP Racing master is .875" which is ~22mm! I doubt it matters much though, as I remember my first Monster stopped on a dime once I got the brakes sorted out (mostly a caliper rebuild, from memory). Still leaning towards the 19RCS at the moment but I'm going to keep pondering as it's too late in the day to get one shipped.

19-05-2020, 04:34 PM	#75
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,984	It's not clear what year your bike is and what the original equipment would be. For a single disc Ducati use a 13mm master (12.7 actually or 1/2") this moves enough fluid for 4 pots and gives sufficient leverage. For twin discs they used 15mm with the coffin type and then 16mm for the Goldline remote res ones. Goldlines would have come in about 1999. A smaller master piston will apply more lever force to the caliper but will need more lever travel. a larger master piston will feel a bit sharper but need more finger pressure for the same braking force, it will have less lever movement. When I had a 750SS with single disc and 12.7mm coffin master, I upgraded to twin discs, but retained the 12.7mm master. This resulted in a slightly larger lever travel but the force that could be progressively fed into those brakes was phenomenal. The feel and feedback was very good indeed. Power + control = the holy grail! My personal preference would be to go for the 16mm master for better feel and more power. A 19mm is probably going to feel woody and not exert so much pressure.? (I have no experience of later brakes with larger masters, I can only assume that they are intended for bigger caliper pistons or more pots.) Another factor in the mechanical advantage of a hydraulic system is the lever itself. The closer the pivot pin to the piston actuator, the more leverage it will give for more lever travel. I believe this leverage moment is adjustable on Radial masters? So you can get back the leverage that has been lost with a larger master piston. __________________