S4R Won't Start - Getting me Down - Part 2

[Luddite]

An easy one there, Mr Gazza, they advertise each month in Practical Sportsbikes http://www.exactuk.com/about-exactfit-cam-belts/

Interesting to see they recommend a fitting tension of 99 Hz (max 110Hz) against Ducati's figure (for my 1100 Evo) of 140 Hz.

Think I'll try them next time I need new belts.

[Mr Gazza]

Thanks Luddite, top bloke..
I think I will be trying them next time too.
Do the twin cam engines use retaining pins on the camshafts for belt changes?

[Capo]

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

Thanks Luddite, top bloke..
I think I will be trying them next time too.
Do the twin cam engines use retaining pins on the camshafts for belt changes?

I have a couple of 996 engines, one of them has slots on the camshaft drive that engages with a special screw inserted into the housing. The other (later) engine does no, but does have the tapped hole for the screw.

I am in way suggesting that a timing belt or belts on a Ducati (or any other motorcycle engine) should last 200,000 miles - as their operational parameters are wildly different, but I thought the following was interesting - and I'm sure going to generate some points of view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA8zzD9jjwQ

I think cam belt change intervals really is an area which could be described as an "un-exacting science" - I used to race Biland SA250 Karts and we changed the belt at 50 hours; the engines ran to 12,500rpm - yes, I lost a belt once, but this was due to the cam belt cover digesting debris from the track and yes, a Biland SA250 is an "interference engine" and yes - it was an expensive repair.

It would be interesting to see a data base of all those people who have lost a belt on a Ducati - and more to the point, how old was it in terms of age or mileage when it failed.

Referring back to the video - you will note at 2.24, if you freeze the frame and look carefully - it was a DAYCO timing belt...!!! Now that's got to be a good advert - and yes, that belt sure was showing signs of distress.

[damien666]

I’ve used the exact fit belts with no issues. Also used one of their throttle position sensors (TPS) to replace original.

[Doggy]

Originally Posted by Luddite

An easy one there, Mr Gazza, they advertise each month in Practical Sportsbikes http://www.exactuk.com/about-exactfit-cam-belts/

Interesting to see they recommend a fitting tension of 99 Hz (max 110Hz) against Ducati's figure (for my 1100 Evo) of 140 Hz.

Think I'll try them next time I need new belts.

That will be exige over on the ducati forum, he's the importer . Also a decent discount for forum users over on there .

For those of you following this saga - there have been a couple of recent valuable comments under the thread "S4R Won't Start - Part 1" made by Luddite, Ron 1000, Slob and Damien.
To avoid any confusion all further updates will be made under this thread, "S4R Won't Start - Getting me Down - Part 2"
I will update further with any news when I get back into the workshop the end of the month.

[Geoff]

In reference to part 1 In the case of my monster 1000 and any mates monsters fuel injected bike, any safety device i.e side stand etc or immobiliser will disable the starter motor function totally. Clocks will sweep etc as normal with total disregard for sensors i.e all instrument lights illuminate, speed and rpm sweep etc whether sensor faulty or even connected. Once initialisation completed then the ecu, clocks read the sensors. You can try it by disconnecting the oil pressure switch the instrument light will illuminate during switch on and will only extinguish at end of sweep. At switch on the unpowered key is powered by an electric field generated by your antenna which then generates a code transferred over the antenna to a PCF7991AT chip located inside the clocks. The code is then checked with the ecu and if any problem the immobiliser LED will re illuminate and disable the starter function. Rather detailed description I know but I stripped and rebuilt my clocks replacing the knackered stepper on the rpm, immobiliser chip, high beam LED and fault with flasher circuit.
In essence if it’s turning over then I’m reasonably sure is not safety switch or immobiliser related.
I use the JPDIAG software and find it very useful with additional features which you will find very useful. Within the software you can in real time interrogate the following:
Throttle position sensor (TPS) reset - maybe it’s so far out it won’t allow bike to start.
Rules out problem with TPS especially as it will visually change as you rotate throttle.
Injector firing - as suggested remove air box and check for fuel spray.
Checks integrity of ecu , wiring, injectors
If no so spray - is the fuel pump working correctly ?
Using the software switch on the pump separately with audible check but can be further checked by disconnecting the pump return and feeding into a bucket but be careful regarding any spillage as I’m sure you realise.
Coil firing - remove plugs - earth to engine and generate sparks.
Checks integrity of ecu, wiring, coils and plugs.

If the above all checks out and your confident about CPS and you’ve already exchanged motor then maybe it’s a timing issue on firing sequence but I’d check the above first as fairly straightforward with JPDIAG.
Very useful advice from others and hopefully sorted soon.

Geoff, many thanks for your comprehensive mail. I will check (again) all that you highlight. Personally I think it is time to interrogate the ECU and if I can't get a response from Anthony at Avanti regarding doing this for me, I guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and try and read any stored fault codes myself as per the procedure offered within this thread. (I must admit though this is not within my comfort zone).
Will update in a couple of weeks - I'm presently in West Africa, the "anti-Christ" or "potential garden ornament" as I refer to the S4R - is in Shrewsbury.

[Geoff]

i use jpdiag for my 2004 monster 1000 and my 2007 1098s tricolore and in both cases my ecu is an iaw5. From memory I installed jpdiag, connected to the Serial connection of the ecu using what people call a fiat connector which is connected to an obd2 connector. Once connection was established and the software shows connected I then downloaded the ecu information which I saved to a file. This file I sent to the jpdiag link and the guy kindly sent me a file with an activation code. Basically I have two unique codes one for each bike and I just change the name depending on which bike I’m working on. I think in the case of the iaw5.9 you don’t need a code.
In the case of my monster the ecu was replaced under warranty and I think it may originally be a iaw5.9 as certain features behaved differently to original. For example on my original ecu if I didn’t press the starter within a defined time it would time out forcing my to re sequence the bike. Even the eobd led behaves differently at initialisation.
I’ve sent several mates ecu s in the past to a avanti in order to remove the immobiliser function and went well.
Using the software you can pretty much rule out the ecu yourself just with some checks I mentioned. As others have said at the very least you can download any ecu faults but sometimes they don’t shed light on what’s really wrong in my limited experience but like you I’m learning. Like you also familiar with Harley’s and old Meriden triumphs but you’ll get there. Worth the effort as cracking bikes.

[Darren69]

I dont think you will need a code to use jpdiag on the S4R. I didnt need one for the S4, just plug it in and it conects. You can read any error codes in the ecu which you will find useful and also you can reset tps and check various functions are working.

[Darren69]

I see the bike is now for sale. So did the starting issue get resolved eventually and what was it?

Hi Darren69 - Yes indeed the bike is now up for sale; not the most sensible time of the year to move a bike perhaps, but at least it is "out there".

The saga continued up to receiving a clean bill of health on the ECU from Avanti Race Parts, there were no fault codes and furthermore Antony installed the ECU on a bike he had in his shop and all was OK. At this point, I took a deep breath and left all alone for a couple of months as the temptation to dig a hole in the garden and bury it was becoming increasingly strong.

Back at it, I'd already ascertained that possible problems with the secondary immobilizer, (located around the ignition key), and side stand switch were not viable as the engine would turn over, (but would not start). Problems with these later two would stop the engine even turning over.

I'd got sparks at the plugs, fuel to the throttle body and signals to the injectors, (checked with a Noid Light), so I cleaned the injectors in an ultrasonic cleaner, but, even though I'd cleaned them I wanted to know if they were actually working.... (You will recall, in the history of this saga, that I'd run the bike one afternoon in the workshop, bringing the engine up to temperature so as to confirm cooling fan operation and then shut it down.) The following morning, it would not start. (By “start” I mean it would turn over but would not fire.) I had no cause to believe the injectors were at fault – I mean it was running the day before – right?

Energising the injectors however I could not hear the tell-tale “click”…….

Because the injectors in the S4R 996 engine are unusual (perhaps all Ducati Injectors are like this, ie: fuel is fed to the injector via an annular ring around the body of the injector itself), it makes testing them on the bench difficult/impossible. To this end I made an aluminium test manifold to mimic the orifice within the throttle body to which an injector fits. This allowed me to feed the injector with carb cleaner and at the same time pulse energize the injector coil to visually see a spray pattern.

Initially there was no spray…..but after a couple of cycles, there it was.!!

Injectors back in and the engine now starts as a fuel injected engine should do – (what a saga...)

So yes, bike on the market; it’s a beautiful machine and I could happily stare at it all day long, but I just don’t feel the love for it; my Harley (sorry guys), curls my toes as and when they need curling, and now retired I need the funds to continue pouring money into a Chapman Lotus project.

Not sure if I’ve enjoyed Ducati ownership but I have very much enjoyed this forum and I can’t thank enough everyone that offered advice and encouragement throughout this journey. I subscribe to a few forums and this most certainly is up there with the best. A credit to you all.

So – anybody out there with an S4R that won’t start – drop me a line..!!!

[Darren69]

Thanks for the update. You've been pretty unlucky to have both injectors fail overnight so i can fully
understand your lack of love for the bike.