Ethanol test for pump petrol

[BigOz]

I've repaired a few steel tanks that have rotted though and they have all had the most serious corrosion on the side stand side at the lowest point which I took to be from the presence of water either though ingress or from aqueous ethanol coming out of solution.

Quite often what looks like just a small pinhole or two turns out to be the tip of the iceberg with whole areas around the holes left tissue paper thin.

I don't know the history of one particular tank that was holed and thin but had no visible rust on the area inside the tank. It may have had the rust removed/treated before it came to me but from the description above I guess it could have been acidic corrosion.

[Dukedesmo]

Originally Posted by Luddite

Scary stuff about steel tanks...

Bugger...

[Mossleymonster]

Originally Posted by Luddite

Having an 1100 Evo with a plastic tank, I've done quite a bit of reading into this subject. I don't want to sound like the voice of doom, DD, but it's not just us plastic tank owners who have to be careful; even steel tanks are not immune although they are at risk in a different way.

Obviously, they're not going to swell, but they can corrode. The corrosion mechanism works like this:

• Fuel is left in the tank for some time.
• The ethanol in the fuel absorbs water from the atmosphere.
• Once the ethanol is saturated and cannot absorb anymore water, it comes out of solution with the fuel and, being heavier, sinks to the bottom of the tank ("phase separation").
• Ethanol is a perfect food source for a particular microbe "acetobacter", which has been found in ethanol underground storage tanks.
• Once the bacteria have feasted on the ethanol, they produce acetic acid, which is corrosive to mild steel.
• The surface of the tank in contact with the ethanol will suffer from "aqueous corrosion" while any exposed area above the fuel will experience "gaseous corrosion". If you've ever opened your fuel cap after a winter hibernation and detected a faint whiff of vinegar, then that's acetic acid at work.

Perhaps potentially more damaging is the effect on any in-tank fuel pumps with their moving parts and critical clearances.

As I said earlier, I don't want to be a scare-longer - if you fill up every couple of weeks, then there won't be time for the ethanol to cause problems, (it's safe while it's in suspension with the petrol). But I think, if you're laying up your bike for any length of time, it's good practice to either drain the tank (and carbs if appropriate) or add an ethanol specific fuel stabilizer.

Roll on spring!

At the riski of being boring again. I'd like to say in an interesting way ......... THIS.
Hope I didn't offend.

[Luddite]

The new edition of Bike (no. 558: 24 July-27 Aug) has an interesting article on the problems with modern fuel (i.e. ethanol).

Nothing really new to us but a handy reference and it has some tips on storage, which are always useful.

(Not on this subject but in the same issue, there's also an explanation of how DVT (Desmodromic Variable Timing) works, which appeals to my inner geek!)

[Luddite]

I've attached this reply from http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...496#post567496 to add the latest information to this thread.

Originally Posted by jerry

Apparently from Begining of July all ESSO garages have had the pure benzine 97 removed and replaced with E5 Gasohol 97 ,, its been caused by UK government requirment that all fuels must have 5% ethanol minimum according to ESSO customer service ,,,
my Mates in sussex tell me this is the case and all ESSO 97 pumps now have E5 labels


very sad new indeed ,, for those of use with carbed bikes

Originally Posted by Luddite

Always treat with caution any news that starts with the word 'apparently'!

So, apparently(!), the appearance of 'E5' labels on forecourt pumps has nothing to do with any changes to Esso's Synergy Supreme+, it is merely the application of new fuel labelling guidelines previously announced by the government back in February.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/g...-greener-fuels

Under the new rules, two new labels must be shown on all pumps by September - 'E5' and 'B7'; 'E5' means petrol with an ethanol content not exceeding 5% (so including ethanol-free), and 'B7' is for diesel with no more than 7% FAME (Fatty acid methyl ester).

If and when 10% ethanol fuel is introduced, then a new label 'E10' will be introduced for 5%-10% ethanol content.

There is still no legislation requiring a minimum ethanol content in fuel; legislation only governs maximum ethanol content.

An email to Esso yesterday prompted the now familiar response i.e.

"Esso Synergy Supreme+ is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland) and we have no current intention to add ethanol to Synergy Supreme+ in other areas of the UK."

So...as you were!

I imagine the next news will come later this year when the government announces its response to last year's consultation on 'whether and how best to introduce E10'.

[Darren69]

It was clear before brexit that the E5 fuel was a stop-gap before they brought in E10. If E5 causes problems for older vehicles then E10 will be twice as bad. But do they care when the motives are to remove older less environmentally friendly vehicles off the road. You wouldhave thought with brexit we would be free from the eurocrats behind this but apparently not.

[Luddite]

Originally Posted by Darren69

It was clear before brexit that the E5 fuel was a stop-gap before they brought in E10. If E5 causes problems for older vehicles then E10 will be twice as bad.

I'll put this in here for future reference in case we get really desperate. Mentioned in the Bike magazine article I referred to earlier, (post #49), it's a small independent fuel supplier who can provide 20 litre barrels of ethanol-free fuel delivered to your door, (at a price, of course!).

They are called Classic Fuel Solutions https://classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/

In the meantime, as I mentioned earlier at post #36, the consultation document suggests that there will still be a legal requirement for oil companies to provide so-called 'protection grade' fuel of not more than 5% ethanol until 31 December 2020 at the earliest with renewal to be considered at that time.

[Luddite]

Originally Posted by Luddite

I imagine the next news will come later this year when the government announces its response to last year's consultation on 'whether and how best to introduce E10'.

A quick (non-)update.

According to an answer given to a question raised in parliament on 30 September:

'The consultation included a call for evidence on whether, and how best, E10 could be introduced in the UK, and the Department is working hard to publish a response as soon as possible this year.'

https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...9-09-30/292315

So it looks like it's still a case of 'watch this space'.

[bigredduke]

This may be a more cost-effective solution than having fuel delivered:

https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/e...ction-additive

[Nickj]

Originally Posted by Luddite

I'll put this in here for future reference in case we get really desperate. Mentioned in the Bike magazine article I referred to earlier, (post #49), it's a small independent fuel supplier who can provide 20 litre barrels of ethanol-free fuel delivered to your door, (at a price, of course!).

They are called Classic Fuel Solutions https://classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/

In the meantime, as I mentioned earlier at post #36, the consultation document suggests that there will still be a legal requirement for oil companies to provide so-called 'protection grade' fuel of not more than 5% ethanol until 31 December 2020 at the earliest with renewal to be considered at that time.

But only if you don't have lambda sensors

[Luddite]

Further to post #53 above, a consultation has been opened today on the introduction of E10 fuel into the UK. It runs until 19 April.



https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...ing-e10-petrol

A quick skim through the proposals suggests that the main points are:

• E10 would be introduced in 2021.
• E10 would become the standard 'premium' fuel containing at least 5.5% ethanol.
• Protection grade fuel (i.e. containing less than 5% ethanol) will continue to be made available as 97+ octane 'super' until at least 2026, after which extension of its availability would be reviewed.

I think most of us have an opinion about ethanol in fuel but, if you feel strongly about this latest move, rather than just moan about it on the forum, make your feelings known to those who will be drawing up the future legislation. Complete one of these response forms.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ponse-form.odt

And email it to: LowCarbonFuel.Consultation@dft.gov.uk

I think we need to ensure that the protection grade fuel is available beyond 2026 until at least such time as the ban on new internal combustion engine vehicles is introduced.

[bigredduke]

There was an article on this in today's Times. Thanks for posting.

[boris]

Also heard this (unfortunately) on the R4 Today program this morning..

[Luddite]

I, (and jerry!), have sent in our response forms and I would urge anyone else with an opinion to do likewise.

The form is mostly in the form of yes or no questions but the final question on the last page is an 'additional comments' blank space on which you can make your feelings known.

It's not for me to tell anyone else what to write but, for the record, I mentioned the following:

• Ethanol causes damage to plastic tanks and carburettor/fuel system components in older vehicles so, consequently...
• Protection grade fuel (i.e. less than 5% ethanol) should continue to be available as long as possible after the introduction of E10 and at least until 2026.
• There is currently no statutory minimum ethanol content, (which is why we can still get Esso ethanol-free), and this should continue after the introduction of E10.
• Assuming that there will be no statutory minimum ethanol content, there should be a new 'E0' label for ethanol-free fuel so that consumers can easily identify it.

[Uncle Bob]

I may be misunderstanding, but surely the supposed 'clean' benefits alone of super unleaded petrol should ensure that it's still available for as long as combustion engines exist? Assuming of course that anyone can afford to buy it.