New S4 owner from Northern Ireland

[Rostrumorhospit]

Thanks for the info, when I get the bike back will check what part numbers are on the ECU.
Cheers
Davey

[Rostrumorhospit]

Got the bike back tonight.
The mechanic had the bike on a Dyno run, just a short run to check fueling and as he suspected it was running massively lean, he reckons the power comander that was on the original spec was probably faulty and has been removed and the ECU isnt mapped for the engine mods.
The guy running the Dyno tried but couldn't get in to remap anything.
The ECU fitted to the bike has the following numbers:

IAW 59M.A2
IAW 59M.A2/HW010/0115_099
12V=052 02

61600.630
996R
DUCATI 007

Have had a look through the links on previous posts and reckon this is the standard S4 ECU, but it does say uprated ECU in the spec I got with the bike.
As I said previously, electronics are not something I am good with.
Can this ECU be modified/flashed/mapped, to suit or do I need a different ECU that can be modified/flashed/mapped.

The other thing the mechanic thought could be causing a problem was fuel pressure but he checked this and was ok, so at least that was something ruled out.

Thanks
Davey

[Rostrumorhospit]

Spec I got with the bike

2001 S4
Engine removed and fully blueprinted
Gearbox fully blueprinted
Ducati Corse 955 Barrels
Ducati Corse 955 pistons
Ducati Corse 955 rods
Ducati Corse 'G' spec cams
Ducati Corse oil cooler kit
Ducati Corse cam belts
Ported and polished heads
Vernier cam wheels
Uprated ECU
Power commander (no longer fitted)
Custom 50mm Silmoto exhaust system
Ducati Performance air box
Lightened flywheel.

This work was carried out by Moto-rapido of Winchester around 2004.

Dyno run print out - Dr.Desmo June'04
119.1 BHP
151.8 Max speed
77.5 Max torque
10994 Max RPM

[slob]

Your ECU can be flashed/remapped.
I'm surprised Moto Rapido chose a Power Commander rather than remapping the original ECU.
I don't know who's who in NI but given the racing community there, there must be Ducati equipped specialists you could call on.
CJS (Bristol), BSD (Peterborough) or Moto Rapido (Winchester) are likely people to try for mapping on a dyno in GB. For mail order maps try Avanti Race Parts or Cornerspeed this side of the water, the result will never be as good as a dyno setup though

[Rostrumorhospit]

Cheers slob, gonna make a few enquiries

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Rostrumorhospit

Got the bike back tonight.
The mechanic had the bike on a Dyno run, just a short run to check fueling and as he suspected it was running massively lean, he reckons the power comander that was on the original spec was probably faulty and has been removed and the ECU isnt mapped for the engine mods.
The guy running the Dyno tried but couldn't get in to remap anything.

As far as I can figure it, on a 59M (I was trying to avoid this, but seem to be going down this road despite myself, heh), you pull the map, decide what changes to make based on the dyno run, twiddle the values in a program like TunerPro - and then blow the updated map to an EPROM and fit that to the ECU, re-test.

The iteration is time-consuming (erase takes about 30 minutes, re-program another 10 or so depending on size - at least, that's it used to take in the 80's for a 32K EPROM, lol).

Modern ECUs are rather different, as they hold the map in volatile memory backed by flash; twiddle the settings on-the-fly while the motor is running and save the map when happy..

Originally Posted by Rostrumorhospit

The ECU fitted to the bike has the following numbers:

IAW 59M.A2
IAW 59M.A2/HW010/0115_099
12V=052 02

61600.630
996R
DUCATI 007

Yeh, I was afraid it'd be like that...

I just received an ECU from Italy. In a Ducati box, with a 96506100B sticker on the box/ECU dustcap (which, of course, is removed once the ECU is fitted).

It has exactly the same numbers on it, except that the "12V" line reads "12V 351 01". I fully expect the one already in the bike will look much the same, should I get motivated to go out and look....

I'm just ordering some cables; hopefully the map header will have some clues.

Originally Posted by Rostrumorhospit

As I said previously, electronics are not something I am good with.
Can this ECU be modified/flashed/mapped, to suit or do I need a different ECU that can be modified/flashed/mapped.

The original ECU is limited by modern standards; takes cables, software, an EPROM eraser (a strong UV light) and a programmer to change the map.

I have an older MoTeC M800 on my car. Love it. But cost me (used) about what I paid for my S4...

Even if you bought a cheaper ECU (lots to choose from), you'd have to build a cable and probably take significant effort to figure out how to drive stuff...

I think I'd talk to Moto Rapido about a re-mapping session, to make up for the PC that's no longer there. I don't know much about PCs, but I believe they don't/can't add more than 10% trim or so? Which I wouldn't have thought would have made that much difference. At least in my limited EFI tuning experience, you don't go from "massively lean" to "that's great" with a 10% trim, even though it'd certainly go a long way to letting you smooth out/address holes in the part-throttle map (which is where you spend 1000% of your time/the rest of your life, along with the warm-up cycle).

Perhaps, when the bike ran well (assuming it ever did), it had different injectors? I know that a 900SSie and a M900ie ECU won't swap - although otherwise very similar, the 900SS and the M900 apparently use different injectors - the map isn't correct when you swap ECUs. Smaller injectors deliver less fuel for the same pulse width/duty cycle.

Originally Posted by Rostrumorhospit

The other thing the mechanic thought could be causing a problem was fuel pressure but he checked this and was ok, so at least that was something ruled out.

Well, that's something ruled out, at least.

[Rostrumorhospit]

Thanks for taking the time to reply / explain.
"can of worms" is the phrase that comes to mind, a lot of unknowns with this bike, slowly eliminating things, hopefully can get to the bottom of it.
Cheers
Davey

[slob]

The 59M is overwritable without needing a UV eraser, earlier superbikes eg 851/888 and the first injected 2V (900ie) have that type of ECU, with a removable sticker on the chip.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by slob

The 59M is overwritable without needing a UV eraser, earlier superbikes eg 851/888 and the first injected 2V (900ie) have that type of ECU, with a removable sticker on the chip.

Yes, I was wrong; realised that later when looking at the GuzziDiag page.

Dodged that bullet entirely with my M900ies - because the DP ECU swap Just Works and fixes the stock "anemic below 3000" problem entirely satisfactorily for me. Pulls like a train from tickover in traffic with stock gearing and doesn't want to chuff out/die at 10 MPH..

For the IAW59M, this is one of those times I'm very happy to be wrong

Poking around some map download databases appears at least some DP maps may include the DP part number as part of the version header - whereas the stock maps either are blank or provide the stock part # (but you can't rely on humans to be consistent, much less populate a database). Guess I'll know more when the cables turn up..

[Rostrumorhospit]

A mate of a mate has recommended a " Rexxer" as a means of remapping the ECU, by all accounts this guy is very knowledgeable on all things ECU related, just wondering has anyone used or even heard of this unit
Thanks
Davey

[slob]

Yep, Rexxer make one of the commonly used ECU mapping tools. You've just got to find someone with a Dyno and the right Rexxer licenses/cables for Ducati ECUs

[spuggy]

Rexxer units are probably very good. Given the prices, I doubt anyone but professionals are going to buy them: https://www.rexxer.eu/e_produkte.cfm

Heck, they want 98 euros for the Fiat lead I can buy all day long on Flea Bay for 5-10 quid... Chortle.

London Electronic (website: lonelec.co.uk/lonelec.com) only rushed me 25 quid for a Fiat lead and a UK-built and tested ODBCII USB reader guaranteed to have the correct serial FTDI chip in it (as opposed to the Chinese clone/knock-off chip you might randomly get in a 5 quid no-name Chinese item).

That said; for anything other than checking a map or maybe twiddling/resetting some minor settings, you're going to want a pro with the right gear; it makes no sense to try to flash maps and test-ride them against your butt-dyno (which are notoriously easily fooled); you really need instrumentation (at least wide-band lambda) and a rolling road.

Because it's tough to find a private driveway long enough to let you see what AFRs you're getting under load at the top of 4th. Or how new PWM parameters work out for closed-loop boost control.

It's also hard to over-emphasize how much more efficient logging makes tweaking the map - as opposed to trying to do it in real-time.

[Rostrumorhospit]

Update on current situation
Short answer, bike still the same but have booked it in with a place over here in Northern Ireland, Torquetronix, goes in on Monday, hopefully he reckons he can get in to remap the ECU and put it on the rolling road, fingers crossed.
I also rang Moto rapido just to see if they had any info on the bike, spoke to a guy 'Andy' who was quite helpfull but they did not have any record of the bike, he did say he reckoned I have an AMA race kit on the bike going by the spec I gave him, he also thought that kit came with twin injectors on each cylinder, which are not on the bike, he reconded the 2nd injectors came in around the 6500 rpm mark, so definitely sounds plausible.
He also said about cleaning the injectors, a few forum members also commented on possible injector issues so haven't rulled that out either, I did try a 'Lucas oils injector cleaner that you pour into the petrol tank but have never really been convinced about that kinda stuff but thought if I noticed any difference it would be an indication at least that there was an issue with the injectors but didn't notice anything.
My thinking ATM is, if the bike had a Power commander fitted and now it doesn't, it's gonna need the ECU mapped so fingers crossed this gives me an improvement.
ATB
Davey

[Darren69]

Hi, it sounds like on paper at least you have a potentially sweet and very expensive engine in that bike, it could be an AMA or factory spec 916R (955) motor but they did have the twin injector setup (which it sounds like you are missing) but in the correct spec from the factory racers of the time should be a 150+ bhp motor potentially. (155 and 153 bhp being quoted but not clear if at the crank/gearbox or wheel) in any case pretty amazing.

At the time they wouldn't have made very many of that spec bike/engine combination at the factory, probably around half a dozen or so for 2 bikes per rider, but if you have all the correct bits, wow?

You do seem to be a bit shy of the 150+ mark though so maybe some of the 955 factory bits are missing? It's unlikely that a remap would add that but even so, a very cool bike. I hope you can check out it's history.

The correct exhaust can add 10% and correct mapping will add a bit more and make it sweeter but I think there's still a way to go potentially even then with this bike.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by slob

Your ECU can be flashed/remapped.
I'm surprised Moto Rapido chose a Power Commander rather than remapping the original ECU.
I don't know who's who in NI but given the racing community there, there must be Ducati equipped specialists you could call on.
CJS (Bristol), BSD (Peterborough) or Moto Rapido (Winchester) are likely people to try for mapping on a dyno in GB. For mail order maps try Avanti Race Parts or Cornerspeed this side of the water, the result will never be as good as a dyno setup though

You could try having a chat with Steve Hillary to see if he remembers any of the history of your bike as he was the motor man in MotoRapido back in the day:

http://www.redmaxspeedshop.com/redmaxspeedshop.html

http://www.redmax-ducati.co.uk/