Looking for a rivet band for a Sil Motor oval carbon can. - Page 3

Flip · 24-02-2020, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

So just send your cans to Flip and he'll repack and sort 'em for you!

Like I haven’t got enough to do!!
Thanks for that

!!!

Darren69 · 24-02-2020, 09:06 PM

Yea, I know that feeling too well. 3 bikes is just 2 too many for me too atm. Just keep an eye out for that postman carrying exhaust sized UKMOC parcels for ya!

Seriously though for a second or two, what sort of mileage could one expect from Termis before they need re-packing? Typically I mean, under normal road use, not track?

Oh and on another non-monster note, sorry, what can I do about this missing rivet? It's just been bugging me, but been like it forever.

Flip · 24-02-2020, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

Yea, I know that feeling too well. 3 bikes is just 2 too many for me too atm. Just keep an eye out for that postman carrying exhaust sized UKMOC parcels for ya!

Seriously though for a second or two, what sort of mileage could one expect from Termis before they need re-packing? Typically I mean, under normal road use, not track?

Oh and on another non-monster note, sorry, what can I do about this missing rivet? It's just been bugging me, but been like it forever.

If it were me unless they have got really noisy, like offensively so I wouldn't bother as they are stainless cans unless you are noticing any discolouration from hot spots (you can get away with it a bit more when they are not carbon cans).

This is the inside of my Ferracci cans after around twenty years and 30,000 miles:

But it was the fact they had cracked on the outer weld of the inlet that prompted me to open them up.

This is after they were re-welded:

Once open I found that the perforated tube was also falling apart so that had to be changed too:

As for your missing rivet, if the hole is clear can you not just pop one in?

Flip · 24-02-2020, 09:53 PM

At the risk of 'exhausting' this thread, I've just had a look through the photos from when I did my Monsters' Ferracci cans and notice the bands used on them have an overlap whereas the ones I have taken off the Mig can do not, so I shall be making the new bands a little longer to overlap as I think it looks much neater.

utopia · 24-02-2020, 10:52 PM

Nah, it'll take more than that to exhaust this thread, Flip.

So, current state of play is that I have re-lacquered the carbon sleeve and knocked the inlet endcap back into shape, removing a few dents as best I could.
I then offered the sleeve back up to the innards, only to discover that the inner perforated tube has taken a knock and was not concentric, meaning that the can didn't want to go back together nicely.
A bit more tippy tappy with an ally-faced hammer and a further trim of one end of the sleeve has it trued up close enough as makes no difference and the endcaps now fit on neatly.
I was polishing the endcaps but had to come in from the shed after just one was done cos my polisher is ancient and gets a bit hot if you run it for too long.

Flip, the innards of your old can were way better than this one was.
Shame I can't do pics but the charred remains of the old wadding was only 12cm long and the rest of the can was merely an open echo chamber.
On the plus side, the perforated tube was lined with stainless gauze and this was still in good nick.

I've been pondering the rivets all day and I must admit that I'm erring towards a preference to fit ally ones.
As Dukedesmo suggests, I reckon its a better bet for a carbon sleeve and also should make later dismantling for repacking a lot easier.
I'm a bit worried that the carbon sleeve wont like the crushing force necessary to fit stainless rivets.
And anyway, ally rivets were fitted originally so it makes sense to stick with that.
Sourcing some suitable blind ally rivets might not be so easy though. I've not found a supplier yet.

Thanks loads for your inputs, everyone.
It makes a huge difference, not only to the quality of the end result but also to the enjoyment of the process in being able to chat about it as I go along.

Flip · 25-02-2020, 12:10 AM

I agree, if it had aluminium rivets in originally then it would be logical to fit them again. Worst comes to worst you could always revisit it if they work loose through vibration over time.

You need to search aluminium closed end rivets but something similar to these will do the trick and I can recommend About Town Bolts as a supplier.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F310432569591

In fact, thinking about it I can’t really see any reason why you couldn’t use a rivet band made out of alloy as opposed to stainless if you wanted. It’s really only there to give a uniform spread of pressure to hold it all in place and to protect the carbon from being damaged by the rivets themselves.

BigOz · 25-02-2020, 10:39 AM

If you want the rivet holes in otherwise scrap bands filled in let me know, I should be able to TIG them closed without much bother.

The bands will need refinishing after the welds are dressed back.

Andy

utopia · 28-02-2020, 12:31 AM

Thanks for the offer, Oz.
I'll bear that in mind but I might try and cobble a new band together.
And anyway, the second band was missing so I don't have a scrap one to weld up.
I did very nearly contact you yesterday though when, while I was polishing up the second endcap (the inlet one) I discovered a short crack next to one of the welds.
In the end though I got impatient and so I nipped down the road to see the chap who mig welded the main pipework together when I first refurbished and modded the system last year and got him to tack it up.
Its not as neat as your tig would have been I'm sure, but its done adequately and I can continue rebuilding the can.

On the rivets ...
Call me fussy but I wanted to use ally blind pop rivets on an ally mandrel .. or as a second choice ally rivets on a stainless mandrel.
It was relatively easy to source ally rivets on a plain steel mandrel but I didn't want the rust spots and I also didn't really want the crushing power of a steel mandrel on assembly to a carbon sleeve.
For a couple of days the only suppliers that I could find would only sell me a box of 500, at an unrealistic price.
But then I was lucky enough to find a guy on ebay who was selling 100% ally pop rivets for use on land-rover bodywork.
He reckons they're the size I require and so I've nabbed 50 of those for six quid.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rove...72.m2749.l2649
Darren .. let me know your address if you want a couple to replace your missing one.

Then I looked at getting some sort of heat shielding liner for the carbon sleeve.
I have some plain ally tape that I could have used but I was more inclined towards a composite ally/fibreglass tape and so I went out searching the local Halfords and other car parts stores.
I thought I had drawn a blank but then struck lucky right at the end of the day when I found some very high quality sheet membrane in a thick woven fibreglass/ally laminate.
The funny thing was (and the reason for telling the story) the guy in the shop actually knew the bike.
He was a regular at a local pub where me and my mate Tony often go to play at an open mic night.
He had even heard us do the lurve song that I wrote about the bike .. and had seen it parked outside.
Small world.

Anyway, that's the progress to date.
Sleeve is now lacquered, endcaps polished and welded where necessary, acoustafil and rivets have been ordered and heat resistant membrane sourced.
Just need to order some stainless to make a strap and we should be ready to reassemble.

hhmunro · 28-02-2020, 08:16 AM

Sorry Utopia, didn't spot You were the OP, or would not have offered advice on drilling stainless...

utopia · 28-02-2020, 09:59 AM

No worries mate.
It was good advice anyhow.

Flip · 28-02-2020, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utopia

Darren .. let me know your address if you want a couple to replace your missing one.

Alternatively, if yours are stainless (I suspect they are if your cans are SS or Ti) and the hole is roughly 5.0mm I have a couple of 4.8mm x 13mm with a 9.5mm head (flattens to 10mm) you can have if you want?

Quote:

Originally Posted by utopia

Anyway, that's the progress to date.
Sleeve is now lacquered, endcaps polished and welded where necessary, acoustafil and rivets have been ordered and heat resistant membrane sourced.
Just need to order some stainless to make a strap and we should be ready to reassemble.

Glad you’re making progress - looking forward to seeing it done and fitted. I quite like the ‘uneven’ single can look on a Monster.

Darren69 · 28-02-2020, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip

Alternatively, if yours are stainless (I suspect they are if your cans are SS or Ti) and the hole is roughly 5.0mm I have a couple of 4.8mm x 13mm with a 9.5mm head (flattens to 10mm) you can have if you want?

Glad you’re making progress - looking forward to seeing it done and fitted. I quite like the ‘uneven’ single can look on a Monster.

Cheers Flip, yea, all the end caps and the pipework is Ti, it's a full JHP Ti system, made, I believe by Promotive for JHP race team but I think the can sleeves are ally, at least they appear to be but I might be wrong as it seems odd to me that they would be, when every thing else is Ti. Unless they were replaced? They did have JHP stickers on originally, which I removed.

utopia · 02-03-2020, 09:28 PM

Ah, the sweet smell of success.

Its all done now and ready for fitting.

In the end I bought a piece of 0.5mm thick 304 stainless for a fiver and made my own rivet band.
It wasn't as much of a problem as I thought it would be, but that's probably because I proceeded with extreme caution.
It turned out that the best tool for drilling the holes was a no2 centre drill, which is 0.187" dia. and could then easily be opened out the extra couple of thou to make them 4.8mm.
For the slots, I used the same centre drill and cut a line of holes roughly 5mm apart and then joined them up with a file.
Finally, I cut the strip at 15mm wide using an ancient pair of tin snips. This made the band curl up like a clock spring but I was able to ease it back straight again without too much bother.

The rivets arrived and were perfect for the job.
I'm glad I went for ally shanked rivets as I reckon stainless steel shanked ones would have required too much oomph to snap and risked crushing the carbon sleeve.

The postie delivered the acousta-fil just before teatime today, so I set about building up the can.
Its all done and ready to fit now.

I suppose its a bit late to fire her up this evening ... and anyway, I haven't had my tea yet.
I might make one last post tomorrow to let you know how it sounds.
It certainly looks the business now.

Thanks for your assistance, all.

Doggy · 03-03-2020, 09:03 PM

Interesting reading, glad it turned out how you hoped . Be nice to see some pics!

utopia · 06-03-2020, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doggy

Be nice to see some pics!

Yes, apologies for the lack of pics.
The sad truth is that I'm now so old school that I don't even own a phone that has a camera on it.

Took the bike out for a short blast this afternoon.
Sounds bloomin' luverly.
It has a much nicer bass boom than it had before.
Its also quiet enough without my homemade baffle fitted now, so I've left that out for the time being.

24-02-2020, 09:06 PM	#32
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	Yea, I know that feeling too well. 3 bikes is just 2 too many for me too atm. Just keep an eye out for that postman carrying exhaust sized UKMOC parcels for ya! Seriously though for a second or two, what sort of mileage could one expect from Termis before they need re-packing? Typically I mean, under normal road use, not track? Oh and on another non-monster note, sorry, what can I do about this missing rivet? It's just been bugging me, but been like it forever. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

24-02-2020, 09:53 PM	#34
Flip Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Beachtown Bike: M900 Posts: 2,188	At the risk of 'exhausting' this thread, I've just had a look through the photos from when I did my Monsters' Ferracci cans and notice the bands used on them have an overlap whereas the ones I have taken off the Mig can do not, so I shall be making the new bands a little longer to overlap as I think it looks much neater. __________________ You're perfect, yes, it's true- But without me you're only you!

25-02-2020, 12:10 AM	#36
Flip Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Beachtown Bike: M900 Posts: 2,188	I agree, if it had aluminium rivets in originally then it would be logical to fit them again. Worst comes to worst you could always revisit it if they work loose through vibration over time. You need to search aluminium closed end rivets but something similar to these will do the trick and I can recommend About Town Bolts as a supplier. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F310432569591 In fact, thinking about it I can’t really see any reason why you couldn’t use a rivet band made out of alloy as opposed to stainless if you wanted. It’s really only there to give a uniform spread of pressure to hold it all in place and to protect the carbon from being damaged by the rivets themselves. __________________ You're perfect, yes, it's true- But without me you're only you! Last edited by Flip; 25-02-2020 at 12:30 AM..

25-02-2020, 10:39 AM	#37
BigOz Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chatham Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 714	If you want the rivet holes in otherwise scrap bands filled in let me know, I should be able to TIG them closed without much bother. The bands will need refinishing after the welds are dressed back. Andy __________________ Sideways is the new forward!

28-02-2020, 08:16 AM	#39
hhmunro Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: bath Bike: M900 Posts: 46	Sorry Utopia, didn't spot You were the OP, or would not have offered advice on drilling stainless... __________________ I would agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong...

24-02-2020, 10:52 PM	#35
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	Nah, it'll take more than that to exhaust this thread, Flip. So, current state of play is that I have re-lacquered the carbon sleeve and knocked the inlet endcap back into shape, removing a few dents as best I could. I then offered the sleeve back up to the innards, only to discover that the inner perforated tube has taken a knock and was not concentric, meaning that the can didn't want to go back together nicely. A bit more tippy tappy with an ally-faced hammer and a further trim of one end of the sleeve has it trued up close enough as makes no difference and the endcaps now fit on neatly. I was polishing the endcaps but had to come in from the shed after just one was done cos my polisher is ancient and gets a bit hot if you run it for too long. Flip, the innards of your old can were way better than this one was. Shame I can't do pics but the charred remains of the old wadding was only 12cm long and the rest of the can was merely an open echo chamber. On the plus side, the perforated tube was lined with stainless gauze and this was still in good nick. I've been pondering the rivets all day and I must admit that I'm erring towards a preference to fit ally ones. As Dukedesmo suggests, I reckon its a better bet for a carbon sleeve and also should make later dismantling for repacking a lot easier. I'm a bit worried that the carbon sleeve wont like the crushing force necessary to fit stainless rivets. And anyway, ally rivets were fitted originally so it makes sense to stick with that. Sourcing some suitable blind ally rivets might not be so easy though. I've not found a supplier yet. Thanks loads for your inputs, everyone. It makes a huge difference, not only to the quality of the end result but also to the enjoyment of the process in being able to chat about it as I go along.

28-02-2020, 12:31 AM	#38
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	Thanks for the offer, Oz. I'll bear that in mind but I might try and cobble a new band together. And anyway, the second band was missing so I don't have a scrap one to weld up. I did very nearly contact you yesterday though when, while I was polishing up the second endcap (the inlet one) I discovered a short crack next to one of the welds. In the end though I got impatient and so I nipped down the road to see the chap who mig welded the main pipework together when I first refurbished and modded the system last year and got him to tack it up. Its not as neat as your tig would have been I'm sure, but its done adequately and I can continue rebuilding the can. On the rivets ... Call me fussy but I wanted to use ally blind pop rivets on an ally mandrel .. or as a second choice ally rivets on a stainless mandrel. It was relatively easy to source ally rivets on a plain steel mandrel but I didn't want the rust spots and I also didn't really want the crushing power of a steel mandrel on assembly to a carbon sleeve. For a couple of days the only suppliers that I could find would only sell me a box of 500, at an unrealistic price. But then I was lucky enough to find a guy on ebay who was selling 100% ally pop rivets for use on land-rover bodywork. He reckons they're the size I require and so I've nabbed 50 of those for six quid. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rove...72.m2749.l2649 Darren .. let me know your address if you want a couple to replace your missing one. Then I looked at getting some sort of heat shielding liner for the carbon sleeve. I have some plain ally tape that I could have used but I was more inclined towards a composite ally/fibreglass tape and so I went out searching the local Halfords and other car parts stores. I thought I had drawn a blank but then struck lucky right at the end of the day when I found some very high quality sheet membrane in a thick woven fibreglass/ally laminate. The funny thing was (and the reason for telling the story) the guy in the shop actually knew the bike. He was a regular at a local pub where me and my mate Tony often go to play at an open mic night. He had even heard us do the lurve song that I wrote about the bike .. and had seen it parked outside. Small world. Anyway, that's the progress to date. Sleeve is now lacquered, endcaps polished and welded where necessary, acoustafil and rivets have been ordered and heat resistant membrane sourced. Just need to order some stainless to make a strap and we should be ready to reassemble.

28-02-2020, 09:59 AM	#40
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	No worries mate. It was good advice anyhow.

02-03-2020, 09:28 PM	#43
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,562	Ah, the sweet smell of success. Its all done now and ready for fitting. In the end I bought a piece of 0.5mm thick 304 stainless for a fiver and made my own rivet band. It wasn't as much of a problem as I thought it would be, but that's probably because I proceeded with extreme caution. It turned out that the best tool for drilling the holes was a no2 centre drill, which is 0.187" dia. and could then easily be opened out the extra couple of thou to make them 4.8mm. For the slots, I used the same centre drill and cut a line of holes roughly 5mm apart and then joined them up with a file. Finally, I cut the strip at 15mm wide using an ancient pair of tin snips. This made the band curl up like a clock spring but I was able to ease it back straight again without too much bother. The rivets arrived and were perfect for the job. I'm glad I went for ally shanked rivets as I reckon stainless steel shanked ones would have required too much oomph to snap and risked crushing the carbon sleeve. The postie delivered the acousta-fil just before teatime today, so I set about building up the can. Its all done and ready to fit now. I suppose its a bit late to fire her up this evening ... and anyway, I haven't had my tea yet. I might make one last post tomorrow to let you know how it sounds. It certainly looks the business now. Thanks for your assistance, all.

03-03-2020, 09:03 PM	#44
Doggy Registered User Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Kent Bike: M796 Posts: 511	Interesting reading, glad it turned out how you hoped . Be nice to see some pics!