Suspected timing shaft oil seal leak

[yellowfever]

So I decided to press on clean the oil leak up and remove the old seal. First bit a messy and boring job but got things reasonably clean with brake cleaner and elbow grease.

Removing old seal initially looked like it was going to be another time waster of a job. I had hoped it would be so knackered it would fairly easily spin, but no such luck. Using the trusty metal pics it didn’t move at all. I had hoped to be able to carefully dig into the seal (not too far given bearing close behind it…) with 90 degree hooked pic, missing the metal tension ring and then spin and pull the seal out.

Instead I found I was just laboriously flaking bits of hardened rubber seal off the surface The reason I couldn’t get deeper into the seal became apparent after a while - apart from the metal tension ring visible on the back of the new seal, there is also a completely rubber encapsulated metal face plate that was gradually exposed as rubber flaked off the surface with my failing attempts to spin it or pull it.

Cue some thinking about other options based on some online research I’d already done. Drilling and/or using self tapping screws as some had suggested/tried in similar situations did not sound appealing given the bearing is right behind, and even if I didn’t hit it there was the danger of bits of seal including metal getting lost behind the seal into the bearing. An engine out split cases job if that bearing needs replacing, so not something I want to risk.

From looking at the gradually revealed interior of the old seal and looking at the new seal it appeared the best bet to get past the metal plate and behind it so I could lever the seal out would be nearest the shaft where the seal lips were. Of course scratching the shaft is a risk and won’t help with sealing if I do. But anyway no going back given state of the now partly butchered old seal. Combined with the flaking off of some more rubber near the edge and centre this started to produce results. The pic worked great as I could keep the point away from the shaft and use the smooth pic shaft against the shaft for leverage. I soon got the seal spinning but it still took me ten minutes to manage to gradually work it out onto the shaft where I could finally remove it.

Still, by the standards of how this job has gone so far, it was a fairly easy win.

Photo shows removed seal with part of now well scratched up metal face plate exposed.



I’d heard these seals were originally blue (replacements are brown) but they turn black when they get old. Mine was certainly black, but sure enough the edge showed some original blue…



Judging by the black colour the brittleness of the flaky rubber and the signs of degrading seal lips before I removed it, it clearly was needing replacing. Whether it is confirmed as the culprit for the oil leak time will tell once it’s all back together…

[yellowfever]

Whilst on a roll I decided to go ahead and try to install the new seal. I used some electrical tape to patch over the crack in the installation cap tool and was reasonably happy this would allow the seal to pass over the thin tape OK with the tape doing enough to protect the seal lips from the sharp edge of the crack.

Fitting the cap brought a new problem. I’d intended to use an extra deep socket to push the seal on square and push it into the housing. I already knew that the socket was not quite deep enough, as the shaft was too wide to fit though the socket drive hole. But I hoped it would get the seal into the housing, even though it wouldn’t be fully seated. However with the extra length of the tapered cap installed over the shaft the socket now came up too short for the most difficult/important bit of getting the seal squarely into the seal housing.

After some head scratching looking for washers or other possible packing options I spotted an old metal torch that didn’t work any more. Some creative destruction later I had a nice metal tube of the right width and length to use as a drift. The edges were a bit thin so some creative bottle cap drilling produced a nice plastic rim. Sadly it would not sit straight despite some rubber malleting and then I couldn’t get the cap off to try again. So i left that end and used the magic of electrical tape on the other end…

Some industrial alcohol moistening the seal and with difficulty using the socket I got it onto the cap and slid down over the start of the electrical tape coving the crack. Thankfully the tape didn’t move even with the tight seal/alcohol. Then it was on to using the repurposed torch shaft drift. It was pretty tricky getting the seal started in the housing, I had to back off and moisten the outer edges with alcohol as couple of times. Eventually I got it square and in the housing, but getting it fully home was tough. In the end a rubber mallet tapping the end of the torch shaft a few times managed to get it fully home.

Tools of the trade… electrical tape repaired broken tool, socket drift, repurposed torch body drift, rubber mallet



At it’s in! Finally!



Time will tell if the various abuse getting the split ring and old seal out and the new one in over the bodged broken tool has compromised the sealing, but anyway at least I know it’s good and tight so should be OK, so fingers crossed…

So anyway I thought I’d crack on and get everything buttoned back up, the belts on and see if I’d got the leak sorted or not. Of course as things had just gone well inevitably it couldn’t last and I ran into a problem straight away. I refitted the split ring and immediately regretted it. The ring clearly had suffered too much in the marathon attempts to remove it so it was much looser than before in the groove. The spacer washer fits over it and contains it in its own groove so it might have been OK but I just didn’t want to risk it. So I’ll have to wait until I can get hold of a new split ring before I can put everything back together.

Naturally even loose it was a pita to get off again, but my special method managed it after 10 minutes of wrangling.

Cotter pins are your friend. Split rings are your enemy…



After that I rang the parts guys. Damaged cap tool will be replaced (I don’t even need to return it) but will take 2 weeks at least (glad I just went ahead and bodged it). I’ll return and get a refund on the too stiff fixed roller. I’ll have to pay return postage but they’ll refund me if they agree it’s defective when they get it.

And thankfully the split ring should be with me by the end of this week so hopefully I can get it buttoned up and tested by early next week…

[yellowfever]

After some light relief sorting some electrical accessories (see other thread) snap ring turned up today, so I hoped to get things back together and finally see if I’d sorted oil leak and could get back to some riding.

Sadly the snap ring had other ideas. Spent a very frustrating evening trying to get the damn thing on and the grooved washer fitted over it. Various tools, schemes and some home made tools later and I’m still stuck… if anyone has any magic ideas/tool suggestions I’m all ears… meanwhile here’s my tale of woe on how it went so far:

Workshop manual says you slide the snap ring over the special cap tool, then slide cap over shaft, then slide ring off tool into groove… So my bodge repaired broken cap tool was pressed into service again. Half an hour later the snap ring was on the tool. Lots of frustration trying to lever the snap ring on and the usual comedy moment when new snap ring I’d waited 4 days to get flew off the tool and I had to spend 10 mins searching the garage for it.

Next steps sliding tool onto shaft and snap ring off tool into groove on shaft were a breeze. Unfortunately the end result of this is a rather stretched snap ring that is no better than the old one, sitting quite loose in the groove. I took it off tightened it with pliers and put it back on without the special tool which made it snugger than using the tool but still not great. Clearly I’d have been better off ignoring workshop manual on using special tool for install. Inevitably it’s wider than the shaft so is a pita to get on and stretches the ring.

I then fitted the first woodruff key which went well using a clamp to install it.

That’s when the fun really started. The spacer washer slides over the shaft and woodruff key and a grooved face then goes over the snap ring so it is in the shaft groove and the groove in the spacer washer. This keeps the timing gears on the timing shaft and away from the cases. However I just can’t get the washer on over the snap ring. Access is very tricky behind washer very close to cases I’ve tried pics, Allen keys, jewellers screwdrivers, deep socket and hammer and a plethora of bodged home made tools including various adapted washers, bits of plastic, a brass measuring tool and other equally ineffective options.

Trying the old snap ring off the shaft I can fairly easily hand fit it into the spacer washer groove with a satisfying click, but this involves pressing one end in the then pressing and rolling the other side in with my thumb. A sort of inwards and forwards motion. Or course access makes this impossible in situ as there is only a mm or two between the washer face with the groove on and the engine case/seal boss. I’ve been trying to replicate the action with tools with the snap ring in the shaft but this has proved fruitless. I did wonder if putting the timing gears on and then torquing down the nut on the end of the shaft (I can reuse the old nut for this as they are single use and not cheap!) might push the washer down the shaft and force the snap ring into the washer groove. But similar approaches with a deep socket and pressure seem to just push the ring out of the shaft groove and towards the seal (maybe as it’s too loose…)

Anyway enough for now, will sleep on it and hope inspiration or better luck strikes soon.

Really had enough of snap rings!

[yellowfever]

Oil leak continued:

So I finally solved the snap ring grief. It turns out that following the workshop manual and fitting the snap ring over the special end cap tool before sliding it onto the shaft stretches the snap ring too much. So it fits a bit loosely in the shaft groove. This then causes the total nightmare when trying to fit the special grooved spacer over it.

All my experiments with various tools including several different home made efforts failed to get the spacer in place over the snap ring. The access is just horrendous with only about 2-3mm behind the spacer to the cases and limited side access to try to get a tool in to hold/lever the snap ring into the groove on the spacer.

Turns out that’s a total waste of time and I’m kind of glad I did not succeed as the fit would not inspire confidence.

The answer was to buy another new snap ring, Fit it (with the usual hilarious difficulty using jewellers screwdrivers and pics) directly over the end of the shaft (not using the special end cap tool). Once it’s finally on it sits nice and snuggly in the groove and the special grooved spacer just slides over it with a bit of finger pressure. Simples!

I had wondered about this and previously tried removing the stretched snap ring and snuggling it up the with pliers before re-fitting it directly to the shaft, but that didn’t help (I suspect after being wrestled onto the end cap tool then the shaft, then off the shaft and then snugged up and put back on the shaft directly made it too far gone).

[yellowfever]

After that things went fairly smoothly. Woodruff keys went in fine, pressed into place with a woodworking ratchet clamp. Then timing gears and washers slid over the shaft and woodruff keys with a bit of careful alignment and rocking.

Then I just had to saw the end off a special timing gear locking wrench to make it fit where I could wedge it against the frame with a block of wood to hold the toothed gear firm whilst I torqued up the special single use nut using another special tool.

After that I locked up the crankshaft and camshafts with the other special tools, loosened the 3 screws on each toothed cam roller gear and reinstalled and tensioned the belts before torquing everything back up and double checking tensions. It was a bit of a faff as I’m new to belt changes and tensioning, but with some time and patience I got them pretty much bang on once I’d learned that torquing the bolts up can change the tension if you’re not very careful.

I left the belt covers off then did a static test, bike started fine and ran sweetly. I let it run until it hit 70C and no sign of any oil leak from oil seal or elsewhere. Of course the real test will be a proper ride under load, so I’m not celebrating just yet. But anyway looks promising and at the least I’ve not made anything worse and I’ve learned a lot. For now I’m leaving the belt covers off as I want to monitor things and also do another more thorough clean of the area so I can spot any issues more easily. But crossing my fingers it’s sorted.

[yellowfever]

This job is a far from ideal introduction to home servicing. You’ll need a few special tools, various slow to arrive parts (and then possibly more) and several elements have the potential to be a real pita. In my case the two screws on the crankcase access cover took nearly 2 weeks to undo including two extractor tool orders (one lost in the post) to get free. And that was before I started with the snap ring grief and getting a broken special order tool delivered.

Even without such calamities it is not an easy job with the engine still in the frame access is tricky and you’re likely to run I to some issues on one element or another of the job (eg removing the seal is not for the faint hearted).

But it can be done. For what it’s worth my top tips:

- If possible wait until winter so you’re not missing nice riding weather
- Order parts and special tools well in advance (bonus tip August is a bad month to get parts from Ducati!)
- Get the special end cap tool from Ducati but only use it for the seal install (without this it will be very hard not to damage the seal on installation)
- Make sure you have something to use as a long hollow drift to install the seal (even extra deep sockets aren’t long enough)
- Get special tool to lock timing shaft gear and to undo single use ring nut
- You can probably do without crankshaft rotating and locking tools and camshaft locking tools, just being careful aligning marks and using rear wheel in gear to rotate shaft. But better to get them if you can, useful for belt changes and setting timing anyway. Laser, JHP,, GB motorcycle products amongst others sell them for far less than Ducati. I mostly got from GB moto products as cheapest and I found them decent enough albeit a bit rough and ready in places (I had to adapt one a bit)
- Don’t reuse the locking ring nut - it’s not cheap but neither is destroying your engine and it’s strictly single use..
- Get two snap rings just in case (they’re cheap enough)
- Use the eyelets of small cotter pins slid over snap ring and pulled with pliers to help remove it.
- Use sharp metal pics to help get snap ring off and to extract seal
- Don’t stab yourself with the pics
- Put some tape over the seal boss to avoid scratches with inevitable slips removing snap ring and seal. Or just stab your finger instead.

[Mr Gazza]

Nice to see a photo of a Monster posted up. This doesn't happen nearly enough.

That's a nice looking bike. I like the paint job. Black trim suits Yellow well.
I don't usually like Black wheels but it suits yours. I'd probably be tempted to put Yellow rim tapes on though.

I saw a rack like that on a Monster at East Kirkby last month. He had a very incongruous looking wicker basket on his, but visible inside was a selection of French cheeses and at least one bottle of fine wine. I'm sure it was done on purpose, probably some kind of in joke, but I could see what he was getting at..

[yellowfever]

Thanks Gazza, black wheels are a bit boring (i admit to liking the white ones on some ducatis) but black is a very practical colour especially if you run a scotoiler as I do! And as you say it works with the rest of the paint job. With yellow standing out as it does you don’t want too much else to be shouty or it gets a bit much… tho’ that said I sometimes wish the frame was a different colour (maybe white like the super light, or silver like my old monster M600) as it doesn’t stand out much against the black air box etc and it’s always nice to showcase the iconic trellis frame a bit… on the plus side the black frame hides the wires and the rubber clips that hold them on quite well.

The Yellow and black paint (and white Ducati logo with black surround) was inspired by the original 750 sport paint job from the 1970’s. A bike I’ve always loved though could never afford (even less so now).

The rack is a ventura aero rack. I used to only put it on for big touring trips and leave the smaller sport rack it can easily be swapped with on instead most of the time. But these days practicality wins as I can carry a decent chain, lock, waterproofs, spare visor, fleece, water etc (and I guess cheese and wine if the mood took me) so easily with my Ventura mistral or bora bag put over the hoop. So with the day to day benefits and my using it for regular weekends away I just leave the Aero rack on rather than swap back and forth. Maybe those sissy bar chopper guys were right all along… I won’t be fitting ape hanger bars however…

[yellowfever]

Well I did a very thorough day long degrease, clean, polish wax and lube, refitted belt covers and subsequently I have been for four 2 hour long mixed rides with the most recent one today. Bike now filthy again - thanks rubbish weather - but no sign of an oil leak so I am calling it sorted.

Ironically the special Ducati cap tool for installing the seal (replacement for the tool that was delivered broken) arrived today. I sincerely hope I have no need of it any time soon…

The fix was more tricky and involved than I initially hoped, but I got there in the end. Hope I can now enjoy a period of more simple standard maintenance tasks, sprinkled with a few over winter upgrades…