Plastic Tank Swell... - Page 2

Blah blah · 16-09-2021, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam911

I have been quoted £1 - £1.5 k for an aluminium hand made one that would need paint too so expensive..

Who quoted that? The one's I've seen are somewhat more so man maths could be used for my S2r...

SunEye · 16-09-2021, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron1000

Anybody had swelling on the 1100 evo? Either I’ve never suffered from it or I’m not noticing it

On that version of Monster the tank is hidden by the removable tank panels. It can swell without it being visible with the panels in place.

Jam911 · 17-09-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blah blah

Who quoted that? The one's I've seen are somewhat more so man maths could be used for my S2r...

Mates rates...

Jam911 · 17-09-2021, 09:40 AM

Is the same true for storing metal tanks over the winter in therms of drying it out ?

I know it won't expand but it may rust due to water in ethanol

Nickj · 17-09-2021, 11:39 AM

Either fill the tank to the brim so their is no air space, helps minimise moisture absorbtion BUT you will still get the ethanol seperating out after a month or two (shelf life of current fuel is pathetic).
Or drain the tank which can then still rust a little but only very light surface stuff.

Ideally when the tank is empty and clean coat the inside with ethanol proof expoxy then you don't have to be concerned that the bottom will fall out of it

Luddite · 17-09-2021, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron1000

Anybody had swelling on the 1100 evo? Either I’ve never suffered from it or I’m not noticing it

One for you here, Ron!

I was surprised to find that Beater in Japan now offer an aluminium tank for the 696/796/1100. I wouldn't have thought there was the demand for them to go to the trouble of adding this to their range. At 21 litres, it gives a very useful capacity increase over the standard 13.5. The undressed welds around the mounting points are a bit disappointing though as they will be highly visible.

I've already seen one of their S4RS tanks being prepped by Image Design Custom and a lovely piece of work it was too. But at over £2,000 before shipping and taxes, you've got to really want one.

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ter#post572540

slob · 17-09-2021, 11:51 AM

I’m sure the undressed welds are absolutely deliberate. You can’t beat a good TIG seam on display in the right places IMHO.

Dukedesmo · 17-09-2021, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slob

I’m sure the undressed welds are absolutely deliberate. You can’t beat a good TIG seam on display in the right places IMHO.

Agreed and, if you don't want that look then you could polish or paint it.

Either way it solves the expanding plastic in a stroke.

walkingpictures · 18-09-2021, 08:22 AM

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=54410

Interesting thread,maybe helpful

Kimbo

Nickj · 18-09-2021, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle duke

I've got a plastic tank S2R & it has swollen slightly but nothing terrible . I tend to use premium grade fuel especially now that ordinary fuel is E10 & i've used wynns dry fuel which is meant to rid the fuel of water if any exists but as i'm interested in a xr1200 harley i've been reading about those suffering tank swell as well & strangley it seems that in certain countries that don't have ethanol in their fuel some owners suffer tank swell & some in countries that have used E10 for a few years now some have never had tank swell . It seems to be a far from one cause problem from what i've read with some saying its the heat & various other reasons ..be interesting what others have to say & if they've found a 'cure' .

The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that in 2020, the 123.49 billion gallons of finished motor gasoline consumed in the United States contained about 12.63 billion gallons of fuel ethanol, so about 10%.
It's the grade of material used that's the problem, Ascerbis made a range of tanks in the 'wrong' material as used by Ducatiand probably HD has some too

mickj · 18-09-2021, 10:23 AM

Triumph used them as well on the early noughties Daytona and Speed triple models, mine is getting wider. MZ used them on all the 1000cc range in 2005 - 2007, mine is getting longer.

Nickj · 18-09-2021, 12:57 PM

It's a PA6 nylon issue

PA6 nylon is "hygroscopic"

It was used because it moulded easily (pour in the mould, rotate and swirl it around) and paint sticks to it well. Typically it's a white creamy colour and usually not coloured.

Later tanks went over to a different nylon that's black but it is almost impossible to paint so began the trend to hide it under panels that could be painted.

* An after thought. The newer black ones do suffer from expansion when they get hot, it's just thermal expansion so they shrink back on cooling. Didn't some numptis push the cover panel a bit if left in the sun?
Harleys just fitted (even) smaller tanks, on the XR1200 it was a common problem

Kato · 21-10-2021, 05:21 PM

Musings on the fuel of saten

Ethanol (EtOH) is traditionally obtained from corn or palm oil because it's a low-cost source of sugar. That sugar can be converted to ethanol at the large volumes needed for commercial fuel. The chemical composition of ethanol is C2H5OH and is no different from the alcohol one might drink during a happy hour at your local watering hole.

The first possible down side is to sell ethanol as a fuel, it must be denatured so that you CAN’T drink it. Denaturing of EtOH is typically done by blending it with a small portion of petrol 5 or 10%, we already see E10 on the forecourt and we know it’s: approximately 10 percent ethanol, and the remaining 90 percent is petrol.

E85 (as used by many race series) on the other hand is a blend of approximately 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent petrol. The petrol is added to improve cold starting, which can be difficult at 100 percent pure levels; it also adds to the energy density of the blend.
So why are we bitching about it if racers are using the stuff at 85% with great success surely a 10% addition must be OK in everyday use ??

Well, the benefits of ethanol relative to race fuel are many fold, but the obvious one is power. A typical (R+M)/2 octane rating of E85 is around 100. This naturally high octane allows for greater compression and expansion ratios, (but you need them).
Secondly, ethanol has a higher heat of vaporization relative to petrol a typical heat of vaporization for petrol is in the order of 59 kilojoules per kilogram of fuel. For ethanol, it's approximately 130 kilojoules per kilogram, more than twice the value for petrol however it has a lower energy content.

Ethanol runs a lot cooler but you need to bump up compression to get it ignited and run far richer and burn way more ethanol than you would decent petrol fine in a race motor where fuel cost is generally not an issue.

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than petrol. So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15, 15 to 30% fewer MPG with E85 than on pump petrol a serious issue for most I would guess

And then there is the fact that ethanol is incredibly hydroscopic, metal fuel tanks are going to rust internally if left with fuel in for any time, it’s also a far better solvent than petrol meaning older vehicles or in fact any vehicle with poor quality rubber O-rings / gaskets / fuel hoses / carb float bowls or composite fuel tank will suffer as the fixtures and fittings start to melt

mickj · 22-10-2021, 10:56 AM

The only petrol that is ethanol free in the UK is Esso super unleaded unless you live in Devon, Cornwall, Teesside and some parts of Scotland. I have two bike with shagged tanks due to ethanol and my nearest garage is an Esso garage but they sure know how to charge for it.

17-09-2021, 11:39 AM	#20
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,208	Either fill the tank to the brim so their is no air space, helps minimise moisture absorbtion BUT you will still get the ethanol seperating out after a month or two (shelf life of current fuel is pathetic). Or drain the tank which can then still rust a little but only very light surface stuff. Ideally when the tank is empty and clean coat the inside with ethanol proof expoxy then you don't have to be concerned that the bottom will fall out of it __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature

18-09-2021, 10:23 AM	#26
mickj Registered User Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Clevedon Bike: M1200s Posts: 565	Triumph used them as well on the early noughties Daytona and Speed triple models, mine is getting wider. MZ used them on all the 1000cc range in 2005 - 2007, mine is getting longer. __________________ Keep the rubber side down. Mick

18-09-2021, 12:57 PM	#27
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,208	It's a PA6 nylon issue PA6 nylon is "hygroscopic" It was used because it moulded easily (pour in the mould, rotate and swirl it around) and paint sticks to it well. Typically it's a white creamy colour and usually not coloured. Later tanks went over to a different nylon that's black but it is almost impossible to paint so began the trend to hide it under panels that could be painted. * An after thought. The newer black ones do suffer from expansion when they get hot, it's just thermal expansion so they shrink back on cooling. Didn't some numptis push the cover panel a bit if left in the sun? Harleys just fitted (even) smaller tanks, on the XR1200 it was a common problem __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature Last edited by Nickj; 18-09-2021 at 01:02 PM..

21-10-2021, 05:21 PM	#28
Kato Dismantled Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: East Molesey Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,247	Musings on the fuel of saten Ethanol (EtOH) is traditionally obtained from corn or palm oil because it's a low-cost source of sugar. That sugar can be converted to ethanol at the large volumes needed for commercial fuel. The chemical composition of ethanol is C2H5OH and is no different from the alcohol one might drink during a happy hour at your local watering hole. The first possible down side is to sell ethanol as a fuel, it must be denatured so that you CAN’T drink it. Denaturing of EtOH is typically done by blending it with a small portion of petrol 5 or 10%, we already see E10 on the forecourt and we know it’s: approximately 10 percent ethanol, and the remaining 90 percent is petrol. E85 (as used by many race series) on the other hand is a blend of approximately 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent petrol. The petrol is added to improve cold starting, which can be difficult at 100 percent pure levels; it also adds to the energy density of the blend. So why are we bitching about it if racers are using the stuff at 85% with great success surely a 10% addition must be OK in everyday use ?? Well, the benefits of ethanol relative to race fuel are many fold, but the obvious one is power. A typical (R+M)/2 octane rating of E85 is around 100. This naturally high octane allows for greater compression and expansion ratios, (but you need them). Secondly, ethanol has a higher heat of vaporization relative to petrol a typical heat of vaporization for petrol is in the order of 59 kilojoules per kilogram of fuel. For ethanol, it's approximately 130 kilojoules per kilogram, more than twice the value for petrol however it has a lower energy content. Ethanol runs a lot cooler but you need to bump up compression to get it ignited and run far richer and burn way more ethanol than you would decent petrol fine in a race motor where fuel cost is generally not an issue. Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than petrol. So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15, 15 to 30% fewer MPG with E85 than on pump petrol a serious issue for most I would guess And then there is the fact that ethanol is incredibly hydroscopic, metal fuel tanks are going to rust internally if left with fuel in for any time, it’s also a far better solvent than petrol meaning older vehicles or in fact any vehicle with poor quality rubber O-rings / gaskets / fuel hoses / carb float bowls or composite fuel tank will suffer as the fixtures and fittings start to melt __________________ "Political correctness is just intellectual colonialism and psychological fascism for the creation of thought crime"

22-10-2021, 10:56 AM	#29
mickj Registered User Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Clevedon Bike: M1200s Posts: 565	The only petrol that is ethanol free in the UK is Esso super unleaded unless you live in Devon, Cornwall, Teesside and some parts of Scotland. I have two bike with shagged tanks due to ethanol and my nearest garage is an Esso garage but they sure know how to charge for it. __________________ Keep the rubber side down. Mick

17-09-2021, 09:40 AM	#19
Jam911 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Stratford Upon Avon Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 288	Is the same true for storing metal tanks over the winter in therms of drying it out ? I know it won't expand but it may rust due to water in ethanol

17-09-2021, 11:51 AM	#22
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,736	I’m sure the undressed welds are absolutely deliberate. You can’t beat a good TIG seam on display in the right places IMHO.

18-09-2021, 08:22 AM	#24
walkingpictures preneolithic frebie Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Cambridge Bike: S4Rs Posts: 329	http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=54410 Interesting thread,maybe helpful Kimbo