Suspected timing shaft oil seal leak

[yellowfever]

Thanks for photo tips Gazza, I will try that.

On leak, no fork leg leak. I was previously suspecting the under strain oil line (and have new o rings, washers etc ready to go) but pretty sure it’s not that now. Will swap lines over inspect everything etc when I do oil change in any case, but I think it’s coming from a bit higher up hence suspecting timing shaft seal. When I took belt covers off it did seem oil was were I’d expect it to be if that seal had failed. Matches up with photos in a thread I found on timing shaft seal failure.

https://www.ducati.ms/threads/oil-le...t-seal.128952/

But I may be getting into confirmation bias!

Anyway back to trying to get the other damn screw out then I’m in a position to check the seal…

[Dukedesmo]

I'd try the hammered in torx bit for the cover screws.

If all else fails cut/grind (carefully) through the cover around the screw until you're left with the shaft of the screw exposed then grab it with some grips - sacrificing the cover is better than risking the case side.

But, if you've removed one screw, the other should spin with the cover (wind it anticlockwise).

[Dukedesmo]

Another way to shift the stuck screw is, if you have access to a welder, place a nut over the head of the screw and fill it and the screw head with weld, this will give you a nut welded onto the screw, giving you something to grip with a spanner/socket and the quick burst of heat will likely release the screw easily.

As the cover/cases are aluminium the weld won't stick to them and as long as it's a quick blast you won't damage them other than burning off any paint.

I have done this on several occasions with a 100% success rate, especially during my ongoing Land Rover rebuild, even recently on a couple of particularly seized and broken bolts (one actually below the surface) 8mm gearbox bolts.

[yellowfever]

Thanks for the tips Dukedesmo. Unfortunately I’ve no welder (or the skill to use one), but have been wondering about trying to spin the cover now one screw is out. But not sure if there are bosses under it (I know there is an o ring). I don’t want to damage the sealing face of the alternator cover itself by trying to spin the inspection cover on it …

Was also thinking of using my dremel to cut through inspection cover as you say, but that’s last resort territory I think. Could also try my butane torch on the bolt rather than hot air gun for more focussed heat (though I got things pretty hot with the gun), if I’m careful I might be able to limit paint damage or only on the (replaceable/easily repaintable) inspection cover.

I also tried my old (manual hit with hammer type) impact screwdriver early on in my removal attempts but only succeeded in rounding things (set was old and impact bits not in best shape so in hindsight not my best idea). Just ordered a better new impact driver set plus stud extractor set. Once it turns up I plan to try a hammered in Torx bit with the impact driver as the next step, or screw in extractor into the existing Allen socket cavity to avoid drilling risks…

Anyway it’s frustrating, but no doubt good practice for whenever I get around to restoring my 1995 M600 which having spent 14 years unmoving in an old pigpen will have many a stuck fastener….

[Dukedesmo]

Unless yours is different, both my Ducati covers are flat and so should spin without damage other than maybe the 'O' ring.

You'll want a new 'O' ring anyway so nothing to lose and spinning it anti-clockwise may even bring the screw with it.

When you do finally remove it use some anti-seize on refitting.

[yellowfever]

Thanks useful info. Screw still stuck pending arrival of extractor/impact tools. But I think I may have solved the mystery of why the screws are so hard to get out. When I initially started trying to get the inspection cover screws out I noticed they seemed to have some grey sealant oozing round the heads. I was surprised as I thought the screw holes are blind… Using a metal pic to scrape it, it seemed to be a tenacious rubbery substance.

Further investigating the screw and thread after I managed to get one out it looks like the very ends of the screw thankfully has some copper slip on, but the threads near the head and the head underside do have traces of this grey rubbery material.

Looking at the workshop manual these screws listed as “inspection cover screws M6x1” should be torqued to 4.5Nm (max 6 Nm) and no lock or sealant is specified. So removal should be easy even with cheese heads, barring corrosion. However there is also a listing for “alternator cover inspection plug” the size obviously doesn’t relate to these screws, but I guess confusion is possible as it mentions “alternator” and the other listing doesn’t. The “alternator cover inspection plug” lists 20Nm torque and threebond 1215 - a grey sealant used as a gasket which is rubbery and temperature resistant.

So I’m wondering if a previous mechanic used the wrong torque and some threebond 1215 hence my problems… threebond 1215 unhelpfully is seemingly quite shock resistant being rubbery (so impact driver won’t do much to it) and temp resistant from -60C to 250C. It seems toluene or acetone might weaken it so I will try applying a bit of that round the screw head with a cotton bud whilst awaiting arrival of the extractor tool.

[yellowfever]

Well naturally the screw extractor kit and impact tool was ‘delivered’ by PostNL at the specified time on Wednesday when I was at home (ie they set tracking to ‘delivered’ even tho’ it wasn’t, just to help the badly exploited overworked subcontracted driver’s stats).

Cue 24 hours of trying to get in contact with customer ‘service’ and when I finally speak to them they just refer me back to the vendor (the excellent HBM). Unfortunately HBM only use PostNL and by then could not ship until Friday, so I gave up started the refund process and bought just the extractor set (exactly the same as HBM kit but “laser tools” branded and twice the price) on Amazon and paid extra for next day delivery.

Amazon delivered reliably and it turned up this morning. These extractor sets are a bit like miracle cancer cures - you are a bit dubious, but desperate to believe they’ll work and will try anything and the makers/sellers know it. Essentially they are twisted Allen keys with sharp edges and a few ridges at the bottom that are meant to grip the Allen socket. They are mm sized but the tops are mostly 1/4” hex (not square) drive. They include an adaptor but only for the 10mm drive larger ones. After a lot of searching I found an old 1/4” drive to 1/4” hex socket in my collection so I could actually try them out with hand tools along with plenty of heat from my hot air gun. And I found the extractors work really well.

But only if you are trying to make your Allen sockets even more rounded than they were before. If however you want to actually extract them you are out of luck and out of pocket… they don’t offer the placebo effect of fake cancer cures but they do offer the making you really annoyed effect. So I tried them with even more heat and my drill, cue no unscrewing until I set drill to maximum torque when more excellent rounding commenced…

So then I tried what Dukedesmo had suggested a while back - trying to rotate the cover as I’d got one screw off. Using the special useless extractor tool rage effect and hitting the edge of the cover with a rubber mallet wonderfully led to the cover moving and the screw with it. The screw was still stuck fast to the cover (even though the cover has no threads) so I had to keep rotating the cover and screw together to unscrew it, but it moved pretty easily in the threads. Looks like I did no damage to the cover or sealing face though I’ll give everything a careful clean and check plus probably swap the O ring on the cover out as a precaution. As for the stuck screw I eventually got it off the cover with a hammer. Whatever sealant was (wrongly) used was absolutely tenacious, it was like it was welded on!

Anyway big thanks to Dukedesmo for a good suggestion! I should have listened to you earlier…

Got stuff on this weekend so I won’t be able to make progress now until next week, but at least now I’ll finally be able to start on the actual Job after 1 week to remove 2 screws… And the new screws arrived so when I’m done they’ll be going in with a little copper grease and 4.5Nm - 6Nm of torque and absolutely none of the worlds strongest sealant…

Anyway sorry for the long boring rant, but it was cathartic!

[yellowfever]

Oil leak cont.

OK so having finally got the alternator inspection cover off so I could get at end of the crankshaft to fit tool I’ve got the timing belt rollers off so I can take a look at the timing drive shaft oil seal.

It’s certainly oily round there



From a close look at the oil seal it does appear that the seal is starting to degrade especially where it meets the shaft (hard to show in photos but see bit circled in yellow)




As I have got this far and have a replacement seal ready to fit I think I am going to clean everything up then go ahead and swap the seal out and hope that sorts it…

Otherwise looks like only other thing it could be is the cylinder/crankcase interface gasket immediately above the timing shaft. Vertical head was off for (pro mechanic) valve work April 2023 so I suppose it could have been disturbed and gradually started to leak earlier this year.

I’ll update in due course.

[yellowfever]

Ps Gazza thanks for photo tips, I got photos to embed though they seem v large at least on my iPad (I need to scroll sideways to view it all). I selected “BBCode full linked” as advised. Should I have gone for “medium linked” option for a less huge photo?

[Mr Gazza]

Not sure why the photo is so big, imgbb usually re-sizes the picture automatically?

[yellowfever]

Hi Gazza, On photos I tried “medium linked” in another post and it was a more modest size on the screen (at least on my iPad) so that might be the answer…

[yellowfever]

So on with sorting the timing shaft oil seal. When taking the toothed gear off the timing shaft I’d naively worried the two woodruff keys would drop off the shaft on disassembly and get mixed up as the shaft needed to be positioned with the keys on the underside. Of course afterwards I realised they are (d’oh) an interference fit and the bigger concern will be how easy they are to get out!

Cue some online research on best methods. Despite various horror stories, I actually found some ACF 50 soaking then a blunt chisel head punch and light hammer taps in the same plane as the shaft worked a treat and they both came out fine.

My smugness did not last when I moved on to the snap ring. The workshop manual breezily suggests using two scewdrivers to remove it being careful not to scratch the shaft with a picture of two big screwdrivers being wielded on a completely disassembled out of bike engine. It turns out the Ducati Workshop Manual does understatement even better than Haynes…

Cue two very frustrating hours before I finally got it off. I regale you here for catharsis plus in case my final successful method is useful to others….

Access is quite tricky so even short small jewellers screwdrivers are limited and levering it along towards the end of the shaft is very difficult. Once you manage to get one end out it’s even harder to try to pry out the other end given the extra tension and it’s forever trying to spin and snap back in place.

I tried a range of screwdrivers, circlip pliars, needle nosed pliars, metal pics (one of the more promising options although at the cost of stabbing my finger), trying to backfill the groove with a plastic WD40 can straw (dream on), mini plastic pry bars (useful if a bit weak but at least not scratching everything) and even an old thin feeler gauge to try to keep the snap ring from going back into the groove as I worked round it. Got it half way round twice before the ring pinged back in place.

Needless to say if the seal wasn’t getting replaced before it would certainly need to be now, as the various inevitable slipping and unavoidable follow throughs meant it was getting a beating from screwdrivers, metal pics etc… still better that than scratching up the shaft and groove.

Just as I was desperately searching for a tool or method I hadn’t yet tried and thinking I might have to try cutting it off I spotted my cotter pin collection. Some very small ones had an eye just big enough to fit the ring through and thin enough to maybe be able to lever them into place. With some effort I got one on and then a second and third. Unlike other methods you don’t need 3 hands as they (mostly) stay in place by themselves. By using pliars on the pin shafts I could pull the snap ring apart and work the cotter pins around the circumference to space them out until I finally managed to get the snap ring out of the groove and pull it off the end of the shaft.

Cue wild celebrations (well a v late dinner anyway).

All considered I did OK on not scratching things too much but I’ll double check for any little burrs on the groove etc and also whether to get a new snap ring. I am not worried about damaging the seal on installation as I had the foresight to buy the official Ducati protective metal cap (an affordable - by Ducat standards - special tool) that fits over the end of the shaft and covers the groove to protect the seal during installation.

Sadly my triumph was slightly marred by finding this brand new tool has a fine crack in it which has resulted in a sharp metal edge on it. Very annoying . I’ll look at getting a replacement but given it was a special order from Ducati I may have to look at other options if I don’t want moto off the road even longer…

[Dukedesmo]

A fiddly job replacing the seal there (glad I did mine whilst the engine was split) but, regarding the tool - is the cracked part the face the part that sits against the seal? if so, can you not get a washer (maybe an aluminium crush washer or similar) to sit between it and the seal to act as protection?

[Mr Gazza]

All fabulous stuff and showing a very sensible approach to everything. Liking the cotter pin idea for the snap ring, they can be little monkeys sometimes!

Regarding the seal "easy over"; I would be tempted to degrease the shaft and carefully wind sellotape round the shaft starting from the seal end, to take the sharpness off the various corners and thread. Being careful to get all the wrinkles out of course.
Maybe a tiny smear of rubber grease on the lip of the seal to help it over, but then that can be counterproductive I have found especially with fork seals. It seems to help the oil past the seal sometimes? Perhaps a little squirt of silicone? I don't know what's recommended?

But get your money back on the tool.

[yellowfever]

Thanks for the comments chaps…

Gazza, according to the workshop manual the recommended lubricant for installing the seal is alcohol. Not sure if you’re meant to drink it but that seems an increasingly attractive option with these annoying setbacks…

I will talk to parts supplier tomorrow re’ the tool. If they can by some miracle get me a replacement quickly then I will wait, otherwise creative approaches will be needed.

Sellotape might by an idea to sort it. Ive also wondered if I can use the damaged tool (which also gets the seal past the threads plus the woodruff key holes as well as the snap ring groove) but cover just the final cracked part of the tool with sellotape. I’ve also been wondering about plastic bags or clingfilm instead of tape.

Another idea I’ve had is cutting a finger off a nitrile mechanic glove and using that like a mini condom over the shaft (ooh-err) to at least put something between the seal and the shaft…

Anyway let’s see how long it will take to get a new tool, then I’ll decide if it’s worth a try with a creative approach instead…