Project M1000ie DS

[Mr Gazza]

From memory, my Oberon lifts 2mm.

[Nasher]

I managed to get out to my workshop for 1/2hr during my lunchbreak to look at the clutch throws.

Both my M1000 and 1000SS have the same engine.
Both have standard Clutch Master and Slave cylinders.
Both have been bled recently and I’m confident they have no air in them.
Both have standard springs and Ducati Performance Pressure plates.
Both have the ‘worn friction plate at the back’ quiet clutch mod.
Both have been set up after the mod so the outer plain plate is @3-3.5mm below the height of the clutch Centre.
Both have a single dished plain steel plate, dished side outwards, as the second plain plate out from the back.
Both sets of plates were cleaned down with brake cleaner before being set up.
Both Clutch Baskets are virtually unmarked inside the slots.
Both feel OK in use and are not heavy to use in my opinion.

Both have a throw when the Clutch lever is pulled in of exactly 1.7mm.

The 1000SS selects Neutral very well in all scenarios.

The M1000 is very difficult to select Neutral at a standstill with the engine running.
It will select Neutral easily if the engine is stopped, or it’s slipped into Neutral just as I come to a halt.

However, I’ve now discovered one big difference.
On a rear paddock stand with the engine running and first gear selected, but with the clutch pulled in:

The 1000SS back wheel has a very small amount of drag making it spin gently, but is stopped very easily by hand, and once stopped takes a while to start spinning again.

With the M1000, selecting 1st with the clutch pulled in the back wheel spins up alarmingly, and when I plucked up courage to my foot, not hand, anywhere near the tyre it was difficult to stop and I had to push quite hard with my foot to stop it spinning up again.

Which, sorry I can’t resist, is ‘a bit of a drag’.

Looks like I need to strip it out again and see what’s going on.
Despite checking them over when I put the plates back in after the mod, I’m hoping to find a warped plate, perhaps one that’s started to delaminate, or maybe a plain steel plate that’s not sliding on the Clutch centre very well.

I will reduce the stack height a little more, but of course there is only that 1.7mm to share around as a gap between all the plates regardless of the stack height.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks

Nasher.

[Dukedesmo]

The extra drag with clutch pulled in is, IMO down to the clutch pack being thicker in that bike, reduce by 0.5mm (or even 1mm) and you should find it much better.

[Luddite]

That's frustrating!

I know that the dished plate flattens over time so might it be that your SS plate is flatter than the M1000's? Also, I seem to remember reading that the amount of clutch centre showing should be 4mm minimum.

[Dukedesmo]

Also, IMO and FWIW I'd ditch the dished plates altogether. I've not used them for years and my clutches have smooth, progressive actions.

I know some disagree but I can see no benefit to the dished plate...

[Mr Gazza]

It's frustrating that both clutches seem to be dimensionally identical and set up the same.

I wonder if by chance or fluke you happen to have two dished plates in the Monster?

Or maybe no dished plate at all? I think it's function is to shove all the plates up the basket when the pressure is released ? I'm not sure if it's important which way round it goes but something to look for anyway, I guess you will be straight edging or surface plating the plates now?


Not sure if this will help, but I have got into the habit of lubing the slots of the outer basket with graphite, which is dry. I use it in the form of Grate Polish which is a graphite based paste. I use it very sparingly and apply it with a toothbrush, virtually polishing most of it off. It does tend to turn your teeth black but I'm sure it makes a difference to the smoothness of the clutch action. I've never had any slipping issues as the centrifugal force should be sending any surplus outwards away from the plates, that said I do polish the inner drum too but wipe it with a cloth afterwards to remove any from on top of the grooves,. Graphite is an excellent lubricant for cast iron. (..and, er, clutch plates!)

[Nasher]

Thanks all, I really appreciate the input.
And yes it's quite frustrating, but I obviously need to strip the pack out again, double check what I've already done, and will reduce the stack height a bit more.
Although I’m struggling with what effect the stack height will have, as regardless of the starting position of the pressure plate it will only lift 1.7mm.
I've still got a few spare plain and friction plates hanging around to play with.

Both bikes came to me with clutches in need of some attention.

I only rode the 1000SS briefly before working on the clutch and thought it was OK, but not quite right, and very noisy, so had a look with the intension of also doing the quiet clutch mod. I also wanted to fit the open cover and DP pressure plate I had.

Considering it felt sort of OK, and the bike had arrived with a receipt from a Ducati specialist to put in a new basket a short while before I brought it, I was surprised to find that along with the new basket there was only a couple of friction plates and a load of plain ones, including a dished one.
I did a load of research, tried a couple of things, and settled on the spec mentioned above.
It now feels very nice indeed, is completely silent at tickover in Neutral, and makes a nice but not too loud ‘Tinkle’ when the lever is pulled in.

I didn’t actually ride the M1000, or even put it in gear with the engine running, before ripping the clutch apart.
As soon as I’d changed the belts and started the engine I knew I needed to do the quiet clutch mod, and considering the number of bodges and neglect I’d found with the rest of the bike I wanted to look it over and again fit a DP Pressure plate and open cover, which this time I'd taken off my M900 before it sold.

It was very dirty inside, and I found a few plates I wasn’t happy with, so I set it up exactly the same as the 1000SS and the rest is above.
I believe I only have one dished plate in there, as I tried all the plain plates with a straight edge.

It’s probably going to be Friday afternoon before I can strip it down now, but it appears the weather won’t be much good for riding anyway.

Nasher

[slob]

When I read your measurement results I was going to suggest rechecking for slack in the gear lever linkage… until I read what you said about the rear wheels spinning.
Are the pressure plates (the top one with the bearing and mushroom, not the ones in the pack) the same make/design? Does one overhang the hub a fraction more?

[Nasher]

Slob hi.

Both Pressure plates were purchased used off EBAY at one stage or another, both have Ducati Performance on them, and are both assumed to be genuine.

The one in the M1000 came out of my M900 which had a great clutch action.

I've not actually compared how the two fit with regard to the rest of the components, and haven't noticed anything untoward, but of course now you've mentioned it I'll have a look.

Thanks

Nasher.

[slob]

Check the height of the caps and spring free lengths while you’re in there.
I imagine the difference between gentle and vigorous drag is a tiny margin.

[alan s4]

Sounds obvious - are both clutch span adjusters on the same number. Try clicking it up one to see if the drag issue gets fixed. Worked for me after new plates were fitted and finding neutral was a nightmare.

[slob]

haha… that could be the answer that makes everyone else look foolish!

[Nasher]

I couldn’t wait until later in the week to look at the clutch, so went out to my workshop really late yesterday evening for a while.

I whipped the cover off the clutches on both bikes and noticed another difference which I expected considering what I’d previously found.
With the engine stopped and the clutch lever pulled in I could spin the Pressure plate, basket etc very easily on the 1000SS, whereas on the M1000 it took quite a lot of pressure to move it.

I took the stack out and examined the plates again, but this time also put each plate on a 20mm thick sheet of Aluminium I have which should be completely flat.

I found two friction and one plain plate which when placed on the flat surface rocked about all over the place and are definitely not flat. One of the friction plates I’d guess to be warped by @1mm, the other Friction plate @0.5mm, and the plain plate a bit less. They got swapped for flat ones from my stash, but I’m running out of good used friction plates fast!

I also found another plain plate which although it appears to be flat with a straight edge does have a mark on one tooth which could be the remains of a dot indicating a dished plate so I swapped it out anyway, taking the opportunity to replace it with a thinner one.

I popped it all back in, and after a bit of mucking about now also have a gap of @4.1mm.

The plate does spin a lot easier with the clutch pulled in, and will probably get a little better with a few miles on it.

Unfortunately it was after midnight by that point, and too late to treat the neighbours to my DP Remus cans, even in my workshop.
I’ll have to try and get out to the workshop this afternoon for 10 mins to start the bike, but that could be my last chance before Friday afternoon, and the weather isn't expected to be good enough for a ride out at that point.

Oh, and did try the span adjuster, but didn’t get any more than 1.7mm throw.

Nasher.

[Dukedesmo]

Originally Posted by Nasher

With the engine stopped and the clutch lever pulled in I could spin the Pressure plate, basket etc very easily on the 1000SS, whereas on the M1000 it took quite a lot of pressure to move it.

And there's the difference, once you can spin it freely it will shift into neutral easier.

The drag is caused by lack of separation of the plates which, assuming your slave cylinder is doing it's job is likely because of too thick a clutch pack...

[Nasher]

Hey Darren

I'm really not understanding how the stack height effects drag.
But would like to.

In my case the pressure plate moves 1.7mm regardless of the height of the stack.
So there will only ever be a gap of 1.7mm shared between all the plates.

If the stack height was limiting the movement of the plate, and decreasing the stack height gave a bigger gap I could get my head around it, but it's not, so I don't see how the plates have more room to move around if the gap is always just 1.7mm.

Perhaps with my quiet clutch mod the movement of the pressure plate is moved outwards to where the throw isn't limited at all.

Nasher.