Slow Monster rebuild - Page 11

Mr Gazza · 17-04-2017, 01:51 PM

Moto Rapido don't sell an off the shelf kit as such for the floating brake, but they can make it up from the parts list that they noted after several people asked for it when I posted something about it a while back.

I still think that you would struggle to do better as a starting point than the standard floating calliper hanger and bushes (For 17mm axle).
I understand your thinking re the pivot point geometry, but the rose joint mounts very near the centre of the disc swept area and I can't see that making any difference.

You can put the forward mount just about where you like with an appropriate plate and I think that it is significant that Ducati put it where they did on the 888/851 and all subsequent versions. There must be a very good reason why they put the rod out of parallel with the arm, I wonder if it is anything to do with the rising rate suspension that the Monster inherited from the 888/851?
But then they supplied it as an aftermarket kit for the SS models which did not have rising rates?

I can assure you that the set up works well as it is, but thinking out loud, I am wondering if flipping the front bracket over would put the pivot into parallel with the arm?? I must measure up. I have never seen it mounted or illustrated the other way up.

Darren69 · 17-04-2017, 02:44 PM

I'd agree with Gary, there must have been a reason for it being that way and I did wonder too that if the bracket were flipped upside down it would be parallel. Although having looked at mine there doesn't appear to be a lot of room in either orientation because of the exhaust, on mine anyway.

Darren69 · 17-04-2017, 06:09 PM

I just had a flick through Falloons Ducati Racers book and some interesting pics in there. I haven't read the text but I think Ducati had obviously tried the parallel arm if you consider Tony Rutter's TT2 bike; first slide.

http://www.ducati.com/history/80s/tt2_/index.do

I think that's what you're expecting it to look like? The early TT1 is the same but the caliper is on top and the arm below then running parallel and then on the later F1 750 TT1 bike both the caliper and arm are on top and with the same angle as the Monster one but upside down.

http://www.ducati.com/history/80s/750_f1/index.do

The later 851 seemed to run a variety of setups including heavily braced swingarms that wouldn't allow for the arm, then none with the caliper on top and then the 888 which is similar to the Monster we know.

I'll have to read the damn book properly and see if there is any info as to why?

Darren69 · 17-04-2017, 06:33 PM

It does appear that the early F1 750 had a cantilever rear like the TT2 and most SS models and had a parallel arm then at some point the later F1 750 developed the rising rate rear hoop ala Monster and the arm was angled and no longer ran parallel so I think the rising rate linkage may account for the change? Maybe only half the counter was needed since half the forces are being transferred, so the angle was changed to account for it? My 750SS had the rear setup like that but I can't remember how it was exactly. I'll have a look to see if I can find any pics of 900SL's

Mr Gazza · 17-04-2017, 08:00 PM

Good research Darren.

I managed to stop for squint at mine as I was passing this afternoon.
Good news is that if you look at it properly, square on, the rose joint is bang in the centre of the swept area of the disc.
Looking at the front mount. It would put it way out of parallel the other way if the bracket was inverted... So I have been putting it on the right way!

Interestingly there is a very convenient potential mount point on the back of the crankcases, which is only a few mm off making the rod parallel, but they have chosen not to use it and gone for the offset bracket instead.
There are no clearance issues from the exhaust.. It's about 3" away. So the mount can go where ever you care to place it. Making me even more inclined to think that it is meant to be where it is.
I fully agree with Darren about the theory that the parallelogram is "toned down" a bit to account for the rising rate suspension. His research seems to support this.

Interestingly, my mates ST4R or S? has a floating rear brake with the calliper on top. The torque rod on that is definitely not parallel, it disappears under the hugger at a jaunty angle.

Dirty · 17-04-2017, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

No worries, I think I found some on the site you mentioned. there are quite a few different ones. The prices are really cheap too. I need to think up where to mount the screen really.

I'm interested in these, got links?

Darren69 · 17-04-2017, 08:15 PM

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3022830413...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I saw this earlier and did wonder if I could make it work on my bike, there really is not much room for it. I think I need to make up a dummy bracket just to see if it will work with the 53mm link pipes.

Darren69 · 17-04-2017, 08:24 PM

http://www.banggood.com/search/camer...e-0-0_p-1.html

huge site, loads of stuff. Hard to pinpoint specific items. Happy hunting!

Dirty · 17-04-2017, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3022830413...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I saw this earlier and did wonder if I could make it work on my bike, there really is not much room for it. I think I need to make up a dummy bracket just to see if it will work with the 53mm link pipes.

Oh that's tempting! Those 2 links probably just cost me a fortune

350TSS · 20-04-2017, 09:24 AM

Gazza,
The rising rate suspension only has to do with the suspension, converting the wheel movement caused by bumps into differential rates of movement of the spring /damper over the stroke of the damper. The caliper mounting arrangement, fixed to the swinging arm or floating is not affected.

A floating rear caliper HAS to be a parallelogram arrangement with the rider on board and the ride height set correctly. The distance between the centre of the wheel spindle and the centre of the brake pad is fixed, the distance between the centre of the swinging arm pivot and the centre of the wheel spindle is fixed (provided the wheel is tight) and the the distance between the centre of the swinging arm pivot and the front fixing point on the crankcase is fixed. The length of the reaction rod is obviously not changeable. When the suspension moves up and down the caliper mount will move through an arc prescribed by the distance between the centre of the wheel spindle and the centre line of the pad. That number of degrees in that arc for any given suspension movement should be as close as possible to the same number of degrees that the contact patch of the rear tyre moves with the same suspension movement. If the arrangement is not parallel at the normal ride height with rider on board then the caliper and the contact patch between the pad and the disc will move outside that arc and the tyre contact patch is not free to rotate purely as a result of suspension movement and the suspension is also effectively locked when the brakes are locked. The system is not mechanically perfect because at extreme (up or down) suspension movements because the arrangement cannot remain parallel with 4 fixed lengths and 3 fixed points. That is my understanding anyway if what I have wrote makes sense????

Dukedesmo · 20-04-2017, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3022830413...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I saw this earlier and did wonder if I could make it work on my bike, there really is not much room for it. I think I need to make up a dummy bracket just to see if it will work with the 53mm link pipes.

That's a lot of money for a part that saves, maybe 50g over the metal equivalent...

350TSS · 04-05-2017, 12:53 AM

Not much time in garage this week as SWMBO was off work and half term for sprogs.
Finished, apart from painting, the rear light / number plate light enclosure, then when I wired it up to check it one of the red LED strips was defective so another £1.98 but annoyingly a two week wait for it to come from China

image free hosting certificity.com

350TSS · 04-05-2017, 01:01 AM

Thought about the protection for the oil cooler now to be mounted in front of the front cylinder exhaust header and bought some 1mm steel mesh (powder coated black) and spent about half a day making some edging strip from 24swg galvanised steel. I brazed the mitred corners and set fire to the powder coating but not a real problem as I intend to paint it anyway. The difficult bit is how to mount it about 3mm in front of the oil radiator in a way that is vibration resistant and durable enough to protect against ballast coming at it from the front tyre.

upload image online free certificity.com

url=https://postimg.org/image/w5dxzaib9/]

[/url]adult photo sharing certificity.com

350TSS · 04-05-2017, 01:18 AM

Incidentally, a completely revised opinion of the Durafix easyweld aluminium solder. In completing the light box I had two threaded bushes 5mm about 15 mm deep to secure the lid and provide a mounting for the rear fixing studs and I also had a divider piece between the red LEDS and the white LED for the number plate light. When held in between wooden battens in the vice the "welding" was very easy with just a butane blow lamp. In fact it was so easy that all the previously made joints at the corners all re-melted and ran away so had to be done again. I am hoping that I will get proficient with this stuff because the (in my head) putative design for the rear light / brake light /indicators will involve quite a lot of detailed work with this material.

350TSS · 08-05-2017, 01:33 PM

Yesterday made up the oil cooler shield mounts from some 22swg sheet steel folded into a corner of a cube and brazed one edge and an old wiper blade.

upload certificity.com

print screen windows 7 certificity.com

Looks a bit rough in these pictures but I have tidied up the welds/brazing with a dremel and once painted should look OK. I think silver for the oil cooler and satin black for the shield and mounts.

17-04-2017, 01:51 PM	#151
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,984	Moto Rapido don't sell an off the shelf kit as such for the floating brake, but they can make it up from the parts list that they noted after several people asked for it when I posted something about it a while back. I still think that you would struggle to do better as a starting point than the standard floating calliper hanger and bushes (For 17mm axle). I understand your thinking re the pivot point geometry, but the rose joint mounts very near the centre of the disc swept area and I can't see that making any difference. You can put the forward mount just about where you like with an appropriate plate and I think that it is significant that Ducati put it where they did on the 888/851 and all subsequent versions. There must be a very good reason why they put the rod out of parallel with the arm, I wonder if it is anything to do with the rising rate suspension that the Monster inherited from the 888/851? But then they supplied it as an aftermarket kit for the SS models which did not have rising rates? I can assure you that the set up works well as it is, but thinking out loud, I am wondering if flipping the front bracket over would put the pivot into parallel with the arm?? I must measure up. I have never seen it mounted or illustrated the other way up. __________________

17-04-2017, 02:44 PM	#152
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	I'd agree with Gary, there must have been a reason for it being that way and I did wonder too that if the bracket were flipped upside down it would be parallel. Although having looked at mine there doesn't appear to be a lot of room in either orientation because of the exhaust, on mine anyway. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

17-04-2017, 06:09 PM	#153
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	I just had a flick through Falloons Ducati Racers book and some interesting pics in there. I haven't read the text but I think Ducati had obviously tried the parallel arm if you consider Tony Rutter's TT2 bike; first slide. http://www.ducati.com/history/80s/tt2_/index.do I think that's what you're expecting it to look like? The early TT1 is the same but the caliper is on top and the arm below then running parallel and then on the later F1 750 TT1 bike both the caliper and arm are on top and with the same angle as the Monster one but upside down. http://www.ducati.com/history/80s/750_f1/index.do The later 851 seemed to run a variety of setups including heavily braced swingarms that wouldn't allow for the arm, then none with the caliper on top and then the 888 which is similar to the Monster we know. I'll have to read the damn book properly and see if there is any info as to why? __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

17-04-2017, 06:33 PM	#154
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	It does appear that the early F1 750 had a cantilever rear like the TT2 and most SS models and had a parallel arm then at some point the later F1 750 developed the rising rate rear hoop ala Monster and the arm was angled and no longer ran parallel so I think the rising rate linkage may account for the change? Maybe only half the counter was needed since half the forces are being transferred, so the angle was changed to account for it? My 750SS had the rear setup like that but I can't remember how it was exactly. I'll have a look to see if I can find any pics of 900SL's __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

17-04-2017, 08:00 PM	#155
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,984	Good research Darren. I managed to stop for squint at mine as I was passing this afternoon. Good news is that if you look at it properly, square on, the rose joint is bang in the centre of the swept area of the disc. Looking at the front mount. It would put it way out of parallel the other way if the bracket was inverted... So I have been putting it on the right way! Interestingly there is a very convenient potential mount point on the back of the crankcases, which is only a few mm off making the rod parallel, but they have chosen not to use it and gone for the offset bracket instead. There are no clearance issues from the exhaust.. It's about 3" away. So the mount can go where ever you care to place it. Making me even more inclined to think that it is meant to be where it is. I fully agree with Darren about the theory that the parallelogram is "toned down" a bit to account for the rising rate suspension. His research seems to support this. Interestingly, my mates ST4R or S? has a floating rear brake with the calliper on top. The torque rod on that is definitely not parallel, it disappears under the hugger at a jaunty angle. __________________

17-04-2017, 08:15 PM	#157
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3022830413...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I saw this earlier and did wonder if I could make it work on my bike, there really is not much room for it. I think I need to make up a dummy bracket just to see if it will work with the 53mm link pipes. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

17-04-2017, 08:24 PM	#158
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,095	http://www.banggood.com/search/camer...e-0-0_p-1.html huge site, loads of stuff. Hard to pinpoint specific items. Happy hunting! __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

20-04-2017, 09:24 AM	#160
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Gazza, The rising rate suspension only has to do with the suspension, converting the wheel movement caused by bumps into differential rates of movement of the spring /damper over the stroke of the damper. The caliper mounting arrangement, fixed to the swinging arm or floating is not affected. A floating rear caliper HAS to be a parallelogram arrangement with the rider on board and the ride height set correctly. The distance between the centre of the wheel spindle and the centre of the brake pad is fixed, the distance between the centre of the swinging arm pivot and the centre of the wheel spindle is fixed (provided the wheel is tight) and the the distance between the centre of the swinging arm pivot and the front fixing point on the crankcase is fixed. The length of the reaction rod is obviously not changeable. When the suspension moves up and down the caliper mount will move through an arc prescribed by the distance between the centre of the wheel spindle and the centre line of the pad. That number of degrees in that arc for any given suspension movement should be as close as possible to the same number of degrees that the contact patch of the rear tyre moves with the same suspension movement. If the arrangement is not parallel at the normal ride height with rider on board then the caliper and the contact patch between the pad and the disc will move outside that arc and the tyre contact patch is not free to rotate purely as a result of suspension movement and the suspension is also effectively locked when the brakes are locked. The system is not mechanically perfect because at extreme (up or down) suspension movements because the arrangement cannot remain parallel with 4 fixed lengths and 3 fixed points. That is my understanding anyway if what I have wrote makes sense????

04-05-2017, 12:53 AM	#162
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Not much time in garage this week as SWMBO was off work and half term for sprogs. Finished, apart from painting, the rear light / number plate light enclosure, then when I wired it up to check it one of the red LED strips was defective so another £1.98 but annoyingly a two week wait for it to come from China image free hosting certificity.com

04-05-2017, 01:01 AM	#163
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Thought about the protection for the oil cooler now to be mounted in front of the front cylinder exhaust header and bought some 1mm steel mesh (powder coated black) and spent about half a day making some edging strip from 24swg galvanised steel. I brazed the mitred corners and set fire to the powder coating but not a real problem as I intend to paint it anyway. The difficult bit is how to mount it about 3mm in front of the oil radiator in a way that is vibration resistant and durable enough to protect against ballast coming at it from the front tyre. upload image online free certificity.com url=https://postimg.org/image/w5dxzaib9/][/url]adult photo sharing certificity.com

04-05-2017, 01:18 AM	#164
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Incidentally, a completely revised opinion of the Durafix easyweld aluminium solder. In completing the light box I had two threaded bushes 5mm about 15 mm deep to secure the lid and provide a mounting for the rear fixing studs and I also had a divider piece between the red LEDS and the white LED for the number plate light. When held in between wooden battens in the vice the "welding" was very easy with just a butane blow lamp. In fact it was so easy that all the previously made joints at the corners all re-melted and ran away so had to be done again. I am hoping that I will get proficient with this stuff because the (in my head) putative design for the rear light / brake light /indicators will involve quite a lot of detailed work with this material.

08-05-2017, 01:33 PM	#165
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,422	Yesterday made up the oil cooler shield mounts from some 22swg sheet steel folded into a corner of a cube and brazed one edge and an old wiper blade. upload certificity.com print screen windows 7 certificity.com Looks a bit rough in these pictures but I have tidied up the welds/brazing with a dremel and once painted should look OK. I think silver for the oil cooler and satin black for the shield and mounts.