Guide: Valve Clearances, Shims and Seals. (Pic Heavy) - Page 2

Dukedesmo · 03-09-2018, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macflurry

Using MBP retainers instead of standard collets can extend servicing intervals but also require MBP shims to work with them.

MBP retainers are great, I hardly need any adjustments on both my M900 and 916 but you don't need to use the modified shims in 2v engines, only the 4v require them and then only the opener shims.

As far as stopping valves from falling into the cylinder, I find it easier to remove the belts and turn the piston up (gently) to stop it falling.

Good info though.

Mr Gazza · 03-09-2018, 11:24 AM

Well done Macflurry. Blue Peter badge and bar for this thread.

I must learn to do my own valves, as I dread the day that Carl Harrison retires. I always entrust this job with him, the only job I don't do myself.

From my observations and not experience... I think when all the measuring is done and it's time to remove the collets or "half rings". You can slip the belts off and keep the piston at TDC to catch the valve. The cam can then be rotated to the best place to get the rockers out of the way.
A magnetic probe (screwdriver or whatever) should be used to pick the collets out.
This is particularly useful if the rings have broken up, which mine seem to do every time!
Not sure if the allen key would stop the little bits that result?

I thought that MBP collets fit the standard shims, I believe that one of the selling points is that they fit them better than the half rings?
I have heard that the MBP collets can embed themselves into the valve stems making them impossible to remove without having the head off and cutting the valve.

Edit... Oops sorry I almost duplicated DD's post!

Macflurry · 03-09-2018, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dukedesmo

MBP retainers are great, I hardly need any adjustments on both my M900 and 916 but you don't need to use the modified shims in 2v engines, only the 4v require them and then only the opener shims.

As far as stopping valves from falling into the cylinder, I find it easier to remove the belts and turn the piston up (gently) to stop it falling.

Good info though.

Thank you.

I'll add that in there as an option later today. The more info the better to cater for different approaches. Totally makes sense. When I started doing it I was trying to avoid taking as much of it apart as possible thinking it would be quicker and simpler but with the time I wasted trying to do that I may as well have slipped the belts off!!

Dukedesmo · 03-09-2018, 11:34 AM

You can get a much better 'feel' for valves if you turn the cam by hand, especially if looking for tighter closer clearances. IMO as tight as possible is better but obviously without any binding.

I find that once you are reasonably happy with the clearances, you can feel just how tight, tight really is by sticking a feeler in the gap (to take up the clearance) and then turning by hand to feel any drag...

Macflurry · 03-09-2018, 11:43 AM

Definitely. I've since removed my cylinder heads and fully get what you mean about the feel for it now you've said it. My gaps have reduced so far that by hand you could feel one binding but when it was on the engine with belts it didn't translate through using the wheel to turn them as the momentum of the engine turning over carried it through the friction easier.

Hmmm, looks like some rewrites coming up on the horizon already. Thanks again.

Macflurry · 03-09-2018, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

Well done Macflurry. Blue Peter badge and bar for this thread.

I must learn to do my own valves, as I dread the day that Carl Harrison retires. I always entrust this job with him, the only job I don't do myself.

From my observations and not experience... I think when all the measuring is done and it's time to remove the collets or "half rings". You can slip the belts off and keep the piston at TDC to catch the valve. The cam can then be rotated to the best place to get the rockers out of the way.
A magnetic probe (screwdriver or whatever) should be used to pick the collets out.
This is particularly useful if the rings have broken up, which mine seem to do every time!
Not sure if the allen key would stop the little bits that result?

I thought that MBP collets fit the standard shims, I believe that one of the selling points is that they fit them better than the half rings?
I have heard that the MBP collets can embed themselves into the valve stems making them impossible to remove without having the head off and cutting the valve.

Edit... Oops sorry I almost duplicated DD's post!

Thanks bud!!

The allen key definitely wouldn't stop shattered parts. I was wary that it may not stop whole collets but I could have used a bigger key. I read a couple of peoples pages saying to use ear plugs, which makes sense if you get the tapered ones, then they would fit nicely.

I've personally not used the MBP parts but one of the blogs read that if you used them you had to swap out the other parts. I'm happy to take peoples direct experience over what I've read on the net as the info I saw may be outdated. I'll also head to the manufacturer site later today and see if there's anything else to be aware of.

Belts off definitely seems to be the way forward. When I first started taking things apart I was wary of touching them as it was something else to go wrong as it went back together. But since taking them off after it isn't as bad as I thought... will confirm that once it's back together though!!

Nasher · 03-09-2018, 01:51 PM

Great thread well done, I just wish you'd put it together before I did my first set of valves last year.

It's a slightly tricky operation, and you do need to be able to use a set of feeler gauges well, but it's a satisfying process if you like that sort of thing.

It's a little annoying however when you work out the exact shims you need and they are not available, so you have to resort to the nearest slightly out of tolerance one, or touch the top of the valve etc on a grinding wheel.

I must admit I had the benefit of the engine being on a stand and in bits, so I did the valves with the heads on the bench.

It did occur to me that on a Monster where the heads come off with the frame and the engine assembled it's possibly worth taking the heads off and doing them on the bench where access isn't a problem.
The engine I was doing at the time is from my SS project, and the vertical head doesn't come off with the frame fitted to the engine.

Again - Well Done.

Nasher

Macflurry · 03-09-2018, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasher

Great thread well done, I just wish you'd put it together before I did my first set of valves last year.

It's a slightly tricky operation, and you do need to be able to use a set of feeler gauges well, but it's a satisfying process if you like that sort of thing.

It's a little annoying however when you work out the exact shims you need and they are not available, so you have to resort to the nearest slightly out of tolerance one, or touch the top of the valve etc on a grinding wheel.

I must admit I had the benefit of the engine being on a stand and in bits, so I did the valves with the heads on the bench.

It did occur to me that on a Monster where the heads come off with the frame and the engine assembled it's possibly worth taking the heads off and doing them on the bench where access isn't a problem.
The engine I was doing at the time is from my SS project, and the vertical head doesn't come off with the frame fitted to the engine.

Again - Well Done.

Nasher

Thanks Nasher.

Now I've gone in to swap the o-rings out for my cylinder heads they definitely came out easier than I expected. The hard part is clearing out the parts around them to remove. Had a few incidents requiring a dremel with seized stud nuts but nothing crazy.

If the engines had a lack of TLC all the nuts bolts and flanges soon add up for replacements.

But on the plus side it is so much easier to work on and you can clean it up and get your valves lapped in again before doing your adjustments and getting your new shims.

My issues are on the vertical head. I thought I may as well take the horizontal one off too while I'm at it to get them both cleaned up nicely inside. Lucky I did as I found one of my valves was very slightly bent which I wouldn't have found if I hadn't!!

Still sealed OK before swapping it but it's a warm fuzzy feeling knowing you've put something else right!!

Dukedesmo · 03-09-2018, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasher

It did occur to me that on a Monster where the heads come off with the frame and the engine assembled it's possibly worth taking the heads off and doing them on the bench where access isn't a problem.

Maybe, but I wouldn't be happy to remove the heads without also removing the barrels because you'd likely get an oil leak from the base afterwards if not. And that means scraping off the goo from the base gasket/shims - then whilst in there I'd want to clean up the pistons and rings - I then would have to clean up the inside of the heads, valves and ports, re-seat the valves, replace the 'O' rings and threebond the bases gaskets.

All of which becomes a much bigger job than simply changing a few shims.

If you think access to the valves with engine in the frame is limited, you should try changing shims on a 916 rear cylinder exhaust valves...

jerry · 05-09-2018, 04:50 PM

superb thread mate brilliant ,, I have done many 2 & 4v shim services and sometime one has to be a gynacologist especially on 4v models ,, if starting from scratch with new valves or rockers its often easier to do them with heads off on the bench .

Macflurry · 15-09-2018, 08:14 PM

Hi guys just as an update:

After reading around the net a lot of people were recommending EMSDUC in the US for shims, even to UK buyers, as a good alternative to Ducati. I get they do the shim kits that would be a God send for regular maintenance but I thought I'd try my luck just ordering what I needed for a start.

So I've ordered 6 shims. 2 openers at $8.50 and 4 closers at $9.50 totalling $55 or £42.08. So far so good... but shipping on top was $33.95 which brought it to a total of $88.95 for the order or £68.06.

I placed the order on the 1st Sep thinking I should have them within a week as peoples reviews said stuff showed up fast from the US. I got the customs letter through the post today to pay the import duty on them and they can deliver Tuesday at the earliest so 18 days to arrive plus and extra £24.88 for import duty.

So the grand total £92.94 and 18 days door to door for 6 shims.

For comparison at https://www.bike-parts-ducati.com the Openers are £11.62 and the closers are £24.80 each. The postage is only £6.99 but the order total would have come to £129.43 door to door.

Another site, StarTwinMotors at www.oemducati.com, are £9.40 for openers and £20.06 for closers so my order total would have been £99.02 but didn't get to see the shipping price as I had to start accepting terms and conditions to go further.

So to round it up the parts only total for each site:

EMSDUC £42.08 + £24.88 duty = £66.96
Bike-Parts-Ducati = £122.44
Star Twin Motors = £99.02

And postage costs:

EMSDUC £25.98
Ducati = £6.99
Star Twin Motors = £ Not Known

EMS come in as being the cheapest even without knowing the cost of Star Twin Motors postage. Although the postage is a bit pricey as a jet kit I ordered from the States was only $18 to ship back from a different vendor. But if you need the parts faster you would have to put your hand in your pocket for one of the others.

If anyone can recommend any more places in the UK for getting them at a decent price then drop the name in a reply and I'll add links to the opening posts.

Mr Gazza · 15-09-2018, 09:10 PM

I have the utmost respect for folks who do their own valves and I still feel bad for not doing my own, but..
When Carl Harrison charges about £120-150 to do the whole job including whatever shims are needed and new half rings if necessary.
I only miss the bike for a couple of days and don't have to wrestle with the airbox and wiring harness. The belts come off for the operation and so are checked when they go back on. If I supply new belts, then those go back on instead of the old ones, so free fitment, so to speak.
It's still making a lot of sense to me, to have Carl do my valves, even though I know the time will come.

Macflurry · 15-09-2018, 09:38 PM

For that price/time frame it makes a lot of sense to hand it over.

I guess if you've already paid out for a full shim kit then job for job the cost becomes minimal just to swap some out and then only buy odd ones as needed. The 8mm shim kit is $269, which is £205. So 2 maintenance periods in and you're saving. If you're definitely keeping the bike long term, have more than one bike that can use the same kit or you're racing and constantly checking and maintaining tolerances then it becomes a cost saver. For casual riders that don't rack up ridiculous miles then it may not be worth the hassle.

03-09-2018, 11:24 AM	#17
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,984	Well done Macflurry. Blue Peter badge and bar for this thread. I must learn to do my own valves, as I dread the day that Carl Harrison retires. I always entrust this job with him, the only job I don't do myself. From my observations and not experience... I think when all the measuring is done and it's time to remove the collets or "half rings". You can slip the belts off and keep the piston at TDC to catch the valve. The cam can then be rotated to the best place to get the rockers out of the way. A magnetic probe (screwdriver or whatever) should be used to pick the collets out. This is particularly useful if the rings have broken up, which mine seem to do every time! Not sure if the allen key would stop the little bits that result? I thought that MBP collets fit the standard shims, I believe that one of the selling points is that they fit them better than the half rings? I have heard that the MBP collets can embed themselves into the valve stems making them impossible to remove without having the head off and cutting the valve. Edit... Oops sorry I almost duplicated DD's post! __________________ Last edited by Mr Gazza; 03-09-2018 at 11:26 AM..

03-09-2018, 11:34 AM	#19
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,901	You can get a much better 'feel' for valves if you turn the cam by hand, especially if looking for tighter closer clearances. IMO as tight as possible is better but obviously without any binding. I find that once you are reasonably happy with the clearances, you can feel just how tight, tight really is by sticking a feeler in the gap (to take up the clearance) and then turning by hand to feel any drag... __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

03-09-2018, 01:51 PM	#22
Nasher Registered User Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Portsmouth Bike: M900 Posts: 1,518	Great thread well done, I just wish you'd put it together before I did my first set of valves last year. It's a slightly tricky operation, and you do need to be able to use a set of feeler gauges well, but it's a satisfying process if you like that sort of thing. It's a little annoying however when you work out the exact shims you need and they are not available, so you have to resort to the nearest slightly out of tolerance one, or touch the top of the valve etc on a grinding wheel. I must admit I had the benefit of the engine being on a stand and in bits, so I did the valves with the heads on the bench. It did occur to me that on a Monster where the heads come off with the frame and the engine assembled it's possibly worth taking the heads off and doing them on the bench where access isn't a problem. The engine I was doing at the time is from my SS project, and the vertical head doesn't come off with the frame fitted to the engine. Again - Well Done. Nasher __________________ Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over.

05-09-2018, 04:50 PM	#25
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,910	superb thread mate brilliant ,, I have done many 2 & 4v shim services and sometime one has to be a gynacologist especially on 4v models ,, if starting from scratch with new valves or rockers its often easier to do them with heads off on the bench . __________________ MONSTERMAN

15-09-2018, 09:10 PM	#27
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,984	I have the utmost respect for folks who do their own valves and I still feel bad for not doing my own, but.. When Carl Harrison charges about £120-150 to do the whole job including whatever shims are needed and new half rings if necessary. I only miss the bike for a couple of days and don't have to wrestle with the airbox and wiring harness. The belts come off for the operation and so are checked when they go back on. If I supply new belts, then those go back on instead of the old ones, so free fitment, so to speak. It's still making a lot of sense to me, to have Carl do my valves, even though I know the time will come. __________________

03-09-2018, 11:43 AM	#20
Macflurry Registered User Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Blakeney Bike: M900 Posts: 134	Definitely. I've since removed my cylinder heads and fully get what you mean about the feel for it now you've said it. My gaps have reduced so far that by hand you could feel one binding but when it was on the engine with belts it didn't translate through using the wheel to turn them as the momentum of the engine turning over carried it through the friction easier. Hmmm, looks like some rewrites coming up on the horizon already. Thanks again.

15-09-2018, 08:14 PM	#26
Macflurry Registered User Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Blakeney Bike: M900 Posts: 134	Hi guys just as an update: After reading around the net a lot of people were recommending EMSDUC in the US for shims, even to UK buyers, as a good alternative to Ducati. I get they do the shim kits that would be a God send for regular maintenance but I thought I'd try my luck just ordering what I needed for a start. So I've ordered 6 shims. 2 openers at $8.50 and 4 closers at $9.50 totalling $55 or £42.08. So far so good... but shipping on top was $33.95 which brought it to a total of $88.95 for the order or £68.06. I placed the order on the 1st Sep thinking I should have them within a week as peoples reviews said stuff showed up fast from the US. I got the customs letter through the post today to pay the import duty on them and they can deliver Tuesday at the earliest so 18 days to arrive plus and extra £24.88 for import duty. So the grand total £92.94 and 18 days door to door for 6 shims. For comparison at https://www.bike-parts-ducati.com the Openers are £11.62 and the closers are £24.80 each. The postage is only £6.99 but the order total would have come to £129.43 door to door. Another site, StarTwinMotors at www.oemducati.com, are £9.40 for openers and £20.06 for closers so my order total would have been £99.02 but didn't get to see the shipping price as I had to start accepting terms and conditions to go further. So to round it up the parts only total for each site: EMSDUC £42.08 + £24.88 duty = £66.96 Bike-Parts-Ducati = £122.44 Star Twin Motors = £99.02 And postage costs: EMSDUC £25.98 Ducati = £6.99 Star Twin Motors = £ Not Known EMS come in as being the cheapest even without knowing the cost of Star Twin Motors postage. Although the postage is a bit pricey as a jet kit I ordered from the States was only $18 to ship back from a different vendor. But if you need the parts faster you would have to put your hand in your pocket for one of the others. If anyone can recommend any more places in the UK for getting them at a decent price then drop the name in a reply and I'll add links to the opening posts.

15-09-2018, 09:38 PM	#28
Macflurry Registered User Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Blakeney Bike: M900 Posts: 134	For that price/time frame it makes a lot of sense to hand it over. I guess if you've already paid out for a full shim kit then job for job the cost becomes minimal just to swap some out and then only buy odd ones as needed. The 8mm shim kit is $269, which is £205. So 2 maintenance periods in and you're saving. If you're definitely keeping the bike long term, have more than one bike that can use the same kit or you're racing and constantly checking and maintaining tolerances then it becomes a cost saver. For casual riders that don't rack up ridiculous miles then it may not be worth the hassle.