S4R Won't Start - Getting me Down - Part 2

Continuation (See Part 1)

At this stage, my attention is drawn to the strange starting nature of the S4R which I have always found “curious”. It’s like with ignition on, kill switch on, when you press the start indent it seems that you are not actually in control – ie: it always strikes me that something else is monitoring and controlling this circuit. (Yes – you can laugh – I have since discovered that the S4R utilises a Servoignition System – do all Ducati’s use this???)

Long story short – I ride Harley’s and old Triumphs – so I am convinced there is a problem. I disassemble the kill switch/starter indent thinking bad contacts, (that was fun….. don’t try it….), all contacts look good, I spray with electrical contact cleaner/Vaseline on plastic sliding faces and reassemble …..I found nothing wrong.

I perform voltage drop tests and find nothing untoward (I think.) 13.44V across battery terminals when standing, falling to 11.38V with engine cranking. I note however that the voltage drops to 12.80V just by turning on the ignition. I then discover with the multi meter that I have a “continuity” reading across the starter motor between the starter body and the positive terminal post. Bingo!! I am thinking, I have field or armature windings failing in the motor or something – I’ll change it.

Are you all rolling about laughing about now….?

So – after discovering that a starter motor for a S4R costs more than a starter motor for a V8 Range Rover Sport (seriously…!!) – I buy one – but I am sorry - it did not come in a Ducati box.

In the process of gaining access to the starter motor, with the alternator and side cover removed, I crank the engine to see if there is any slippage, or anything sporadic going on with the starter clutch. All appears good and I leave alone. I install the new starter motor, (which incidentally also shows continuity between the positive terminal and body when on the bench…..)

It still doesn’t start – anybody looking for a perfectly serviceable starter motor for a S4R…..???

Final observation – I KNOW we should not do this, but even after spraying WD40 directly into the combustion chambers via the throttle body with the butterflies held open, when I go through the start sequence, the engine does not fire. (Yes – the cam belts are intact..!!!)

I really do give up – I just cannot think of what else to do.

Please, anybody got any ideas???

[Mr Gazza]

Originally Posted by Dilkris

(Yes – the cam belts are intact..!!!)

If you have not already done so, you really should change the cam belts, before any more attempts at starting the engine.
You say that the bike has stood for some years, this is the very worst treatment for the cam belts, they don't like standing as they tend to take a set round the small pully wheels.
Cam belt change interval is based on time (2-3 years) rather than mileage.

Re injectors. The best way to clean them is in an ultra-sound cleaner. (I have a borrowed ultra-sound cleaner. I could give yours a blast in it if you post them over.)

I found that I can reach the injectors with my finger past the butterflies, when installed and working. Obviously this is with the airbox removed.. It might be possible with just the lid off?
I can feel the little jet pulses on my finger tip.

I think you mentioned that you want to sell the bike?.. I might be interested if you want to get rid as is.

[chris yeatman]

How old is the battery?
A good battery is vital as it has to start the engine and power the ecu, a half charged or knackered battery wont do both.

[Nickj]

So far....
As it does start there must be sparks at the plugs for it to start, is it safe to assume there are still sparks when it doesn't?
I'd imagine that they are still present so we have one out of three for a bang.

Next to look at is kind of obvious, there is an air bleed into the tank. You can tell if this is blocked or even partially blocked as any air space in the tank goes negative pressure so there's a little suck as the cap is opened. This tends to let the bike run for a while then as the negative pressure increases the to match the pumps output pressure..... You get the idea here, no more fuel flow or significant reduction, no bangs.
Possibly a check of the injectors pressure which might be an issue, a bit less likely as if it starts then there was the fuel and it was pressurised. Lose either and again no bangs.

Belts would be an extremely good idea, a belt snapping on a 2V is messy and on a 4V head is going to be twice as bad. Think many of these with a shed load of parts going down the

I've already got a quattro motored ducati so it's all yours Mr G

[Mr Gazza]

I did wonder about the voltage drop, but 11.38 is only just over half a volt below 12, so I would have thought that was enough?
It is however a 2 volt voltage drop over all, so maybe could be better? but maybe not by much?.. Doesn't sound too bad.

[Nickj]

Under load a 12v battery can dip as low as 9.5v but it will very quickly ramp back up to it's nominal or a bit better than about 12.7v
If it's cranking the motor for a few seconds then it's probably fine, a naff battery either won't even turn the lump over or will fade out after a few turns.

The nominal voltages for a battery are 2v per cell so 6 cells is 12v, in reality you find a charged battery ought to be at 2.1 a cell which gives you 12.6v. This would be a good voltage to see.
If you use a float charger then you'll often see a higher number of about 2.25 a cell giving you 13.5v which (really due to the number of people routinely using float charging) has become what people now normally expect to see. The extra you get is really just due to the battery holding a lot of surface charge on the plates which will burn off very quickly once loaded but it does give you a good kick when starting up the bike and a minute or two more cranking time on a big lumpy V.
What determines the degree of knackerment of a battery is its ability to hold charge, a real dog will get to 12.6 or more but fades out and drops volts really quickly and once the volts go down they stay down.
A good one will drop but leave it a few minutes and the volts will come back up with a small fraction of a volt drop.

[Mr Gazza]

Sounds like the voltage drop is not too much of a concern and battery condition seems to be okay judging by what's been reported.

Could there be a build up of water in the tank after the lay up? Maybe this was all cleaned out during the pump change operation?

When my M900Sie came home as a non-runner, I found that it would run after I sprayed switch cleaner on the contacts of the harness connectors to the injectors. it faded and stopped as the switch cleaner evaporated. The contacts weren't dirty but seemed to be slack in some way. The cleaner made the contact while it was present.
I spliced in new Marelli connectors and it's been fine ever since.. I think I have two new Marelli plugs still, if it proves to be that, yours for the postage.

The injectors may be clogged. You say the bike was parked for years so even if the injectors are not completely clogged it's a good idea to get them cleaned and flow matched.

2004 S4R most likely still have the 59M ECU. It's established that those are prone to failure. If you can source 5AM ECU from another 2005, 2006 S4R you can swap and see if it's the problem.

If not I suggest you download IAWDiag software and get the cables so you can use the diagnostic port to pull error codes from the ECU. The 5AM ECU was used on all models and therefore you can get used ECU from any Ducati I believe up to Panigale. Panigale does have different ECU. The ECU can be reflashed with S4R map with the IAWDiag software.

Search for GuzziDiag or IAWDiag on Ducati.ms forums. There are lots of threads. I will look and post the links to the cables you need because there are some cables that work and some that don't.

For used ECU you can do search on e-bay. The 5AM is not that expensive and there are some for sale from people who upgraded to Termis that came with race ECU.

S4R (996) 59M and 5AM Interchangeability

GuzziDiag / IAWDiag Download

USB cable for Triumph Motorcycles TuneECU FTDI FT232RL Chip OBD II KTM Tune ECU

3 Pin to 16 Pin OBD2 Adapter Connector Diagnostic Cable for Fiat Alfa Lancia US

1198 ECU IAW5AM - needs to be reflashed with S4R map. Can be done with the IAWDiag software

S4R 5AM maps on TuneECU.com

[slob]

Very comprehensive reply from Haloguy
If this sounds daunting to you I think Avanti Race Parts in UK can probably help without costing the Earth
Be a little patient for reply as I think he’s away for Mugello GP

OK - I am responding to 8 replies to this thread in one go - (Mr Gazza, Chris Yeatman, Nicki, Haloguy628, slob) - some of you responded more than once. I hope this is how the forum works.

Comments note about cam belt - do you really think the cam belt is likely to fail at slow/fast idle? Are they prone to fail? Looking at them they appear to be "oversized" for there duty - when comparing them to say the cam belt on a Lotus 502 Engine, or even indeed the final drive belt on a Harley. I read with interest checking injector operation by "finger feel" - I didn't think of that.

Battery is brand new - well - 4 weeks old now.

I have considered air lock in the tank - have tried starting with the tank cap open - there is also no "hissing" when opening the filler cap which is usually indicative of blocked venting.

Regarding voltages and voltage drop - searching google/utube I think all readings are within advised margins but I would say the battery is very much on the limit - after 3 failed starting cycles - it is struggling and needs time to recover.

Tank was removed and cleaned thoroughly - all "fixed lines" were blown out with compressed air and tank left in the sun for a couple of days prior to fitting the fuel pump, strainer, filter and new flexible fuel lines and clips. As discussed, I have separated and sprayed contact cleaner on all connectors prior to re-connecting.

haloguy628.... I am with you regarding injectors, but I will confirm operation, if not spray pattern etc as per Mr Gazza's comment prior to pulling them. As regards the ECU... this for me is the dark art of modern engines. I value your comments and
will look into downloading IAWDiag software and getting the cables so as I can use the diagnostic port to pull error codes from the ECU - but I won't lie to you and must admit - at this level of technical requirement, my enthusiasm is fading exponentially and I am rapidly loosing the will to live.

Probability is presently high that my wife is likely to get her garden ornament after all.

Personally? I believe I have sparks and fuel - but not at the right time. The engine ran fine, (only in the workshop note - I did not take her out). but the following morning she simply failed to start. Could it be a crank sensor problem? An ECU issue? But if so, why would they fail "overnight" whilst sitting in the workshop???

Fed up

[slob]

it works however it works, we are all enthusiasts that want to help you. ignore the occasional ‘keyboard warrior’. if you were local to me (and i wasn’t stuck in hospital right now) i would offer to come and help

haloguy is in usa, so not strictly speaking ‘member’ but we keep forum open, as the experience is better for his generous input

[Darren69]

The yellow ECU lights up usually if there is an error code. I had a dodgy crank sensor which would occasionally miscount and it would trigger the Yellow ECU light until I switched off the ignition so I imagine a failed sensor would do the same.

Darren 69 - The ECU light as you describe it, is what the manual refers to as the EOBD Light correct? (It is the orange light immediately beneath the neutral and oil pressure warning lights in the instrument console)

Unfortunately it is not lighting up, other than when you turn on ignition, it then goes out after maybe 1-2 secs, suggesting there is no error.

Slob - sorry to hear you are in hospital and your kind offer of help if you were not, comments noted re: haloguy, if I was bright enough - and probably wealthy enough - his advice would I'm sure be invaluable.

Have you checked the CPS? should be 680 ohms +- 15% @ 20 degrees C but from experience that reading is not a conclusive fail or pass.

The sensor often works for a while then can prevent starting or running with backfiring, not revving out/misfiring so only fail safe is to swop with a known good and check the gap is correct.

[slob]

occupational hazard mate.
haloguy’s advice isn’t particularly expensive but does require the right aptitude to complete
i’m very impressed he’s taken the time to go through the option in such detail
http://www.avantiraceparts.co.uk/page.php
is very helpful with advice and will give you straight answers but don’t expect a reply for a week following mugello. you can browse his ecu faqs in the meantime